Gregoire Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 I see Wallacio's point here: the regulations are clear. I can only imagine the negative responses someone would get from posting a pic of a 5 pound smallie that was caught in April or May. While I can understand why someone would want to take a photo of an atlantic for the purpose of identifying it if it was caught accidentally, posing with the fish seems a bit much. The analogy of the sturgeon in this case is quite apt. Unless you are doing government sponsored trapping and research there is no reason to be targeting a species if there is no open season. Atlantics are a protected species for a reason. There seems to be only a small amount of fish returning to the tribs every year so an argument could be made that catching any atlantics may severely compromise the population of this fish. Initially I was not sure where Wallacio was going with his posts, but after reading his posts I think he has a valid point. If you know that there is a population of fish that is at risk, why fish in the waters when they are present? If you are that interested in studying the population let the experts collect fish in ways that are less stressful to them and maybe volunteer to help in the data colelction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remastered Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) I would also agree that encouraging the avoidance of fish like bass just to also avoid the atlantics too isn't very good... Informing more on fish ID seems like a much better option... Edited November 7, 2011 by Remastered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjang Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 I see Wallacio's point here: the regulations are clear. I can only imagine the negative responses someone would get from posting a pic of a 5 pound smallie that was caught in April or May. While I can understand why someone would want to take a photo of an atlantic for the purpose of identifying it if it was caught accidentally, posing with the fish seems a bit much. The analogy of the sturgeon in this case is quite apt. Unless you are doing government sponsored trapping and research there is no reason to be targeting a species if there is no open season. Atlantics are a protected species for a reason. There seems to be only a small amount of fish returning to the tribs every year so an argument could be made that catching any atlantics may severely compromise the population of this fish. Initially I was not sure where Wallacio was going with his posts, but after reading his posts I think he has a valid point. If you know that there is a population of fish that is at risk, why fish in the waters when they are present? If you are that interested in studying the population let the experts collect fish in ways that are less stressful to them and maybe volunteer to help in the data colelction? So why not close the river entirely until the Atlantic population become large enough... The credit does have a warm water fishery. It's one of the things that makes it a great river. Fly fishing and float fishing for bass IMO is a perfectly legit method. Pacific salmon can also enter the river REALLY early. I've caught a chinny as early as mid august. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCTFisher9120 Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 I think the project is good. I'm sure the Fleming College Restoration Project has funding from the MNR too but they are not the only people sinking money into the project. Anyway in my first year of school I volunteered some time to help with the release of some fall fingerlings Atlantic's. Would love to catch a Atlantic...maybe next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin elia Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 My final thoughts on this subject: My comments have absolutely NOTHING to do with the santuary licenses that were granted in past years. Unlike others, I did not have an issue with the licenses nor with the practise of angling under this license for study/assessment purposes. Correct me if I'm wrong but the santuary licences were not issued this year yet you and I both know full well that Atlantic Salmon are being deliberately targetted in the river at certain times of the year (ie July, August) and with species-specific tactics including by members of your organizations "executive". Please don't insult our collective intelligence by citing that other species are being targetted as part of some "hertitage pursuit" and that Atlantics are simply by-catch. THIS is what I take exception to...ie the continued deliberate targetting of a species for which the season is closed. I used the Sturgeon analogy to demonstrate how ridiculous and dishonest it is to cite by-catch as a defense. In fact, many sections of rivers in Ontario are now full or part time sanctuaries so that anglers could not hide behind the by-catch loophole. Further, as previously I stated one cannot avoid catching them in legal pursuit of other species (ie Steelhead, Salmon, Bass etc). With that said, the regs state one is to release them immediately and not snap hero shots of them if you do catch one. Again, I am referring to present day...one of the photos posted in this thread with a fish being held for a photo shows the date (September 2011) in the file name so this fish was not caught with a sanctuary license (feel free to correct this assumption if not accurate). I actually want to see this program succeed and have no doubt that our rivers are already better places thanks to the efforts under the program. My only point is that fishing regulations should be obeyed by ALL of us at all times. This point should not be difficult to agree with... I find it hard to agree with you when you are saying it is a black and white issue and your previous post referencing the MNR response to a question CLEARLY states that that it is a grey area and would be up to each individual Conservation Officer to make that decision on the spot depending on how the fish was treated. That said, I really don't care for your opinion. Some people would take pictures (many have and sent them to John for verification), and some wouldn't. Who cares. Go fishing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Just thought I would throw this up. I just caught this Atlantic Salmon yesterday, November 5th in Lake Ontario (St. Catharines) This fish was released unharmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigdritchie Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Just thought I would throw this up. I just caught this Atlantic Salmon yesterday, November 5th in Lake Ontario (St. Catharines) This fish was released unharmed. I hate to break it to you, but like so many others, your "Atlantic salmon" is a brown trout. Edited November 7, 2011 by Craig_Ritchie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 I hate to break it to you, but like so many others, your "Atlantic salmon" is a brown trout. You could be right, and I too thought it was a trout when I caught it, but when I posted this pic on another forum, everyone said it was a Atlantic Salmon, and after doing some reading, the fish I caught has a slight fork in its caudal fin, in which this fish has so therefore it may be be an Atlantic Salmon, as the Brown trout does not have any fork in it's caudal fin and a brown trout also has a thicker caudal peduncle. I guess the jury is still out on what exactly I caught? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigdritchie Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 The jury's not out - it's a brown, trust me. Some browns do have a slight fork in the caudal fin, and I've seen some fish a few spots on the tail. Fish are like humans - there are some variations in all individuals. The ID charts are a good general guide, but there is always some amount of variance. I'm not surprised people on an internet forum think it's an Atlantic. Almost any silver fish with spots on it, or that jumps, gets mis-identified as an Atlantic by someone these days. We all want to believe in these fish - some more than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john from craa Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 I would also say that is a brown, not an Atlantic. The photo is not high enough resolution to view the dorsal, but if you close the mouth I bet the jaw extends well past the back of the eye. It appears to pass the eye when the mouth is open in the photo. Still a very nice fish. If you have a high res photo send to me via e-mail and I'll take a closer look to verify. [email protected] As for Dave's post, you highlight two points, targeting out of season fish and taking a photo of OOS fish. There is no doubt there are more and more people showing up after a rain, usually with float gear and spey rods that no doubt hope to accidently catch one. But your example of the sturgeon versus a guy tossing a spinner for bass is absurd. Spinners are one of the top lures for river smallies, so are flies. They also catch bows, browns, Pacific's and Atlantic's. A huge ball of worms sitting on the river bottom only catches one specie...sturgeon. One measure we have asked anglers to follow is simply don't fish in warm water situations, i.e. above 22C water temps. This unwritten rule applies to resident trout as well. Closing the river does not make sense either. Why close down a fishery for bass, steelhead and browns and other fish just because of some incidently caught Atlantic's. Adult Atlantic salmon are present in the lower river every month of the year (between fresh fish and kelts/drop backs). Should we all stop fishing for all the other fish we all enjoy because we might catch one. Where do we draw the line? With three adult Atlantics found in the Forks last summer perhaps the implications to your fishing ethics are in trouble too. Tossing a dry or wet fly for browns in the UC and catching an Atlantic is the exact same. And tossing a dry fly and catching Atlantic parr and smolts is also the exact same. We all know they are there and we all know that drifting a fly through the Upper Credit has a high probability of catching an Atlantic at any size (far, far, far higher chances versus the lower river). Yet people still go fishing and catch them every day. And I have no issue with this at all. Again, why should we change our fishing if no harm is done and we are fishing for stream trout. Yet there are days I have landed more Atlantic smolts in the UC than trout in recent years, as have many others. On the issue of taking a photo of an OOS fish. The same law applies to rainbow, brown and brook trout in the Upper Credit as they have a zero limit and must be released immediatly to the stream. Yet you have posted many pics of resident browns that breaks your own ethics (and the law you state above). Your handling was good, fish were released unharmed and I have done the same and have no issue. But for you to take exception to one, yet exempt yourself from the same rules is the pot calling the kettle black. The scenario is the same tossing crank baits for walleye or pike in May and catching a bass on any lake. It happens to all of us and most anglers are quick to release the out of season fish unharmed. But I bet most would take a quick pic of a 5 pound+ bass. The biggest issue these fish face is mis-identification (both ways). Anglers reported several grilse killed from Erindale by anglers (and 4 were verified with pics this fall and reported to MNR). Just like I have found some anglers with buckets of chub and mixed in they had juvenile browns, bows and Atlantic's. And on other occasions many bass have been kept in May/June from the lower river. Education is the major concern for protecting all the species. Take a pic, don't take a pic. Your choice. But know your fish, handle them with care and enjoy fishing! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 The jury's not out - it's a brown, trust me. Some browns do have a slight fork in the caudal fin, and I've seen some fish a few spots on the tail. Fish are like humans - there are some variations in all individuals. The ID charts are a good general guide, but there is always some amount of variance. I'm not surprised people on an internet forum think it's an Atlantic. Almost any silver fish with spots on it, or that jumps, gets mis-identified as an Atlantic by someone these days. We all want to believe in these fish - some more than others. Well, I guess I'll just file this picture (when I get it developed) under "Uncertain Species, Brown Trout/Atlantic Salmon" I hope to get back out fishing Lake O some time this week and hopefully I can latch onto another similar fish and and take more detailed photos of it. It would be nice if the Atlantic's can sustain a population in Lake O, so we can catch more of these beautiful fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 On the issue of taking a photo of an OOS fish. The same law applies to rainbow, brown and brook trout in the Upper Credit as they have a zero limit and must be released immediatly to the stream. Yet you have posted many pics of resident browns that breaks your own ethics (and the law you state above). Your handling was good, fish were released unharmed and I have done the same and have no issue. But for you to take exception to one, yet exempt yourself from the same rules is the pot calling the kettle black. If Dave was fishing after Sept 31st, you might have a point. But I'm fairly certain he doesn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThisPlaceSucks Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Well, I guess I'll just file this picture (when I get it developed) under "Uncertain Species, Brown Trout/Atlantic Salmon" There's nothing uncertain about it. That is a brown trout! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bob Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 So the experts can't determine if it's a Atlantic Salmon or Brown Trout....and they want extra money to dump into a species that so closely resembles another...... ...not coming from this Redneck.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 That's a brown, I don't think anyone other then the guy who caught it thinks it's an Atlantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin elia Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) That's a brown, I don't think anyone other then the guy who caught it thinks it's an Atlantic. Here is what John meant more specifically. He didnt say that Dave was poaching, I doubt Dave would do that. The same rule that Dave is referencing about OOS fish, is clearly stated the same for fish in certain size restricted area's. They must be released immediately. Catch a Brown over 20" in the forks, no pictures right? Very bottom of page 8. http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume/groups/lr/@mnr/@letsfish/documents/document/198219.pdf Lets let it go. Edited November 7, 2011 by justin elia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Dude, I've got nothing against anybody, I'm just saying comparing a fish that doesn't even have a open season (Atlantics in the Credit) to taking a pic of a 0 possession limit fish (UC brownie) is a bit of a stretch. Hell, if I caught an Atlantic you bet your ass I'd take picture of it :) MNR come get me! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Letting it go would be the wisest thing to do. There is lots of good information in this thread. Let's not lose that info over some silly bickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) That's a brown, I don't think anyone other then the guy who caught it thinks it's an Atlantic. When I caught it, I did not know what it was, me and the guy I was fishing with guessed a brown trout, it was not till I posted it on another forum that I was told by other members that it was a small Atlantic Salmon, that is why I posted it on this topic, I did email John from the CRAA and sent him a cropped picture and he replied back and explained why in fact it is a brown trout, species solved. I did not think anyone on any forum was wrong in identifying this fish, I have very limited knowledge on trout/salmon species so who am I too argue, that's why I posted earlier, I was going to file it under uncertain species, either way I am glad I got a pic of my trout because I have never caught one before, so it was quite exciting. Edited November 8, 2011 by Frank81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remastered Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 It just occurred to me that the fish I lost last year in mid-July at Port Credit was an Atlantic. They seem very aggressive so I would say we might have some good pier fishing in the future. Best of luck with the atlantics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 When I caught it, I did not know what it was, me and the guy I was fishing with guessed a brown trout, it was not till I posted it on another forum that I was told by other members that it was a small Atlantic Salmon, that is why I posted it on this topic, I did email John from the CRAA and sent him a cropped picture and he replied back and explained why in fact it is a brown trout, species solved. I did not think anyone on any forum was wrong in identifying this fish, I have very limited knowledge on trout/salmon species so who am I too argue, that's why I posted earlier, I was going to file it under uncertain species, either way I am glad I got a pic of my trout because I have never caught one before, so it was quite exciting. No worries Frank. I think it's fair to say that you putting your trout pic up on our board served to educate more than a few others. I saw the thread on the other board. All's well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 When I caught it, I did not know what it was, me and the guy I was fishing with guessed a brown trout, it was not till I posted it on another forum that I was told by other members that it was a small Atlantic Salmon, that is why I posted it on this topic, I did email John from the CRAA and sent him a cropped picture and he replied back and explained why in fact it is a brown trout, species solved. I did not think anyone on any forum was wrong in identifying this fish, I have very limited knowledge on trout/salmon species so who am I too argue, that's why I posted earlier, I was going to file it under uncertain species, either way I am glad I got a pic of my trout because I have never caught one before, so it was quite exciting. Brown or Atlantic, it's a great fish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeseb Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) If the salmon do develop into a healthy self sustaining population would we only be seeing them in the rivers mentioned in this post? Edited November 9, 2011 by oakvillzfinest420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiel Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 If the salmon do develop into a healthy self sustaining population would we only be seeing them in the rivers mentioned in this post? I personally fish the XXXX creek to escape the madness of other creeks. Would the XXXX be seeing any of this stream rehab and stocking? Do you really believe that mentioning your preferred stream on an open forum will help you avoid crowds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbouck Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 In case this thread goes downhill fast, i would like to thank everyone for the amazing amount of info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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