The Credit River Dams

[CLofchik]

I think a whole bunch of people need to chill out on the whole Atlantic Salmon topic….I mean it has already turned the Credit into a true year-round fishery, me and a buddy were catching Atlantics in Mid-July this year, how cool was that!!! I think it’s great that they’re stocking Atlantics again, great fun, people need to shut up and fish for them…. Let’s face it, the original lake Ontario Atlantic Salmon is long gone, this is the next best thing, enjoy it as it develops right before your eyes!

 

Seeing as how there were only 54 returning Atlantics recorded last year I'm assuming you were hitting a school of stocked yearlings before they returned to the lake. For every Atlantic you caught I'd take 100 returning bows or 200 returning Kings for the same investment in hatchery space & stocking power. THAT'S the next best thing. Chinook salmon will be gone from Lake Ontario in a few years, a casualty in a political war that has been waging for many years. Nobody really thinks that Atlantics will provide a viable angling opportunity, but while there are many agendas at work promoting Atlantics, angling is at the very bottom.

 

Atlantics are closed year round in the Credit River.

 

Game, set, match.

 

Clofchik, there are more wild chinnies than you would think

 

Joseph

 

You do know there's a big question mark with the reliability of Scale Pattern Analysis, somehow in a decade we've gone from a 2% reproductive rate to 50%. Not to mention the bios that authored this now infamous and oft quoted paper are balls deep in Lake O's Atlantic program, hmmmmm

 

Either way there'll be a rebuttal to the wild spawning argument in a few years with the mandatory fin clipping going on.

[wallacio]

You do know there's a big question mark with the reliability of Scale Pattern Analysis, somehow in a decade we've gone from a 2% reproductive rate to 50%. Not to mention the bios that authored this now infamous and oft quoted paper are balls deep in Lake O's Atlantic program, hmmmmm

 

Either way there'll be a rebuttal to the wild spawning argument in a few years with the mandatory fin clipping going on.

 

 

Yeah, and the "experts" that are always refuting the results of the study are almost always those who have a selfish interest in seeing more Chinook stocking (ie the downrigging crew including charter captains). The eastern tribs support natural reproduction of Steelhead but not Chinook, whose smolts spend even less time in the rivers (and don't tell me that the Eastern Steelhead are primarily strays from US stocking programs)???

 

The adipose clipping will provide a rebuttal? So you already know the outcome of the study before it's complete?

Edited September 3, 2009 by wallacio

[Hairpy]

It will be many years before we see the results from the clipped chinnies. All I know is that we caught tonnes of unclipped smolts this year.

 

Joseph

 

p.s. Dave, wanna head out tonite!

[acmarou]

Girls, Girls , Stop getting your panties in a knot. You'll have plenty of time to wave that fairy wand around if you

 

play your cards right.

 

If you don't like it go somewhere else. I like my river the way it is AND it will only get better.

 

Hey GCD. You were wrong!!! They Do need 2 of us!!!! :lol: :lol:

[Paulus]

It will be many years before we see the results from the clipped chinnies. All I know is that we caught tonnes of unclipped smolts this year.

 

Joseph

 

p.s. Dave, wanna head out tonite!

 

By all the powers of the Gods of Rubedom, do mine eyes deceive me? What chance leadeth me to such a pass, wherefore I am brought to witness the apparition of two such powerful minions of their benign and suffusing influence, as are the Joseph and the Wallacio - and on the same post? May ye put the boots to the Boots, ye miscreant varmints!

 

Also, with regards to the preceding eloquently argued discussion: 'tis said "where there is smoke there's a fire."

 

Don't nobody be askin' what kind of smoke...

 

p.-

Edited September 3, 2009 by Paulus

[wallacio]

By all the powers of the Gods of Rubedom, do mine eyes deceive me? What chance leadeth me to such a pass, wherefore I am brought to witness the apparition of two such powerful minions of their benign and suffusing influence, as are the Joseph and the Wallacio - and on the same post? May ye put the boots to the Boots, ye miscreant varmints!

 

Also, with regards to the preceding eloquently argued discussion: 'tis said "where there is smoke there's a fire."

 

Don't nobody be askin' what kind of smoke...

 

p.-

 

Hark, Paulus awakes from his summer slumber!!!!

 

'Tis true...we've both been temporarily sprung from baby prison to rig for some soon to be extinct Lake O Kings.

Edited September 3, 2009 by wallacio

[BillM]

You guys are starting to confuse me with all your fancy talk.

 

[Hairpy]

It's OK Bill me too Paul's hittin the bong again shakespeare style!

 

Joseph

[Richard S.]

That adipose clip on the chinooks has been working in favour of the wild fish. Every report i've herd so far has many more none clipped vs clipped chinook's, But I guess only time will tell. Ether way it seems the the majority of the lake guys don't want to believe anything anyone or what any report says in regard to chinooks reproducing in the wild.

 

 

Rich.

[CLofchik]

The eastern tribs support natural reproduction of Steelhead but not Chinook, whose smolts spend even less time in the rivers...

 

And how's that working out? How many seasons before the Ganny run is below 3k?

 

(and don't tell me that the Eastern Steelhead are primarily strays from US stocking programs)???

 

Only about 1/3 of them or so, but even that isn't enough of a buffer to keep bows from collapsing soon.

 

The adipose clipping will provide a rebuttal? So you already know the outcome of the study before it's complete?

 

Common sense & experience let me have a pretty good guess what the outcome is going to be. Wanna start a pool on the outcome?

 

It will be many years before we see the results from the clipped chinnies. All I know is that we caught tonnes of unclipped smolts this year.

 

Joseph

 

Uh, two years? And was your unclipped smolts in the same run with the ton of Atlantics?

Don't be greedy and pass it around guys, could use a hit off the same bong you guys are smoking.

[Paulus]

And how's that working out? How many seasons before the Ganny run is below 3k?

 

Don't be greedy and pass it around guys, could use a hit off the same bong you guys are smoking.

 

 

I don't understand your point. That run's been in steady decline for years, mostly due to over-fishing. There would be much fewer if it wasn't self-sustaining, since there is no stocking at all. In the meantime you can tell all the little rainbow and salmon smolts that you catch in that river, that they're not supposed to be there accordin' to this here study and m'yeerz uv feshin' fer yuze varmints!

 

...what bong? what are you talking about? there's... no... uh... bong! We're just hanging out in a field of tall grass!

 

 

p.-

[misfish]

Back in the early 80,s,they released hundreds of atlantics just up from Elderado park, What a great stretch of river to fish.

 

 

Thats all I got to say about this thread. Wait,,,,,,,,

 

Brings back to many memories. Great ones, too add.

 

Lets just say aswell.The ol Streetsville dam,oh what some great fish I seen there and caught.(above the dam that is)

 

Below that,was a great pool,then they distroyed it by making it a fast running rapid of water. No more smallies to fish there.

 

 

Ah history.Memories.

[john from craa]

Some funny posts...I was wondering what Dave has been doing after work.

 

With respect to a few questions and comments:

 

Streetsville fishway - it is a fish ladder and if opened every jumping specie can pass. Pacifics are held back for egg collection (under the fmp as Rich noted), trout, Atlantics, bass, sucker and all native species are lifted. CRAA volunteers have operated the fishway for the MNR since 1991.

 

Norval fishway - I have been working on this project for 12 years, getting the land owner on board and going through the long delays of the FMP and red tape. The MNR is very supportive and CRAA and MNR are working closely to get the project done. I spend several hours every week dealing with engineers, designs or other matters for this project alone. If all goes well it wil be built in the next 8 months.

 

Wild chinooks - A new study done in NY on the Salmon River shows roughly 60% of chinooks are wild in Lake Ontario (not the bios involved in Atlantic studies). As noted above, in 2011 we will know for sure. Early creel studies on small salmon this summer are pointing to a 50:50 ratio of wild versus adipose clipped chinooks under 4 pounds. Chinooks are also begining to adapt to our tribs and more are staying until fall or even for a full year in Eastern tribs (based on MNR and CA electro-shocking data). This has been found on some Gbay tribs since the late 90's (MNR and U of G info). Chinooks are also adapting to the thiamine shortage, as their offspring are surviving in both wild and hatchery. CRAA has documented wild chinook fry in large quantities in the Credit since 1998! Some years are good, some are poor. Anchor ice and spring floods seem to be the main factors in poor year classes. More river access would likely improve natural reproduction dramatically on the Credit.

 

Wild coho - in 2006 three tribs of the lower Credit were found to have wild YOY (young of the year) coho salmon. Coho are stocked at an older age so they were wild fish. Funny, they got past Streetsville even without the fishway. So do many steelhead.

 

Brook trout - First off, 99.8% of the wild, self sustaining brook trout populations exisit above barriers that lake fish (except Atlantics) and resident browns do not have access too. There is a very short section (200m) of a major trib that brookies and rainbows can overlap at present due to adult transfers. This still provides over 2/3 of the watershed to brook trout water only. There are two other tributaries that support brook trout in the middle section. One is separated by a large dam. This trib has seen over 10,000 trees planted and a bunch of cattle fencing, and rehab done by CRAA. The other trib only became a cold water section last fall, after work initiated by CRAA in 1998. The trib was hitting 30.5C in 1998. With our partners on the project (MNR, CVC, OS, etc) we added 2.5km of cold water habitat by removing a 3 acre on-line pond, dropping water temps by an astounding 6-7C. This summer electro-fishing found good numbers of brookies where they had not been (since sometime in the 1800's or so). Guess what else they caught, Atlantics, browns and rainbows. All together - uh oh! The bottom line is lake run steelhead will not be entering 99.8% of the brook trout water - so why all the concern? With rehabilitation and other work CRAA is trying to grow the brook trout population and habitat. I'd like to see more people get involved in that sort of work with CRAA rather than the 'don't hurt them' comments. How about more 'let's help them' comments!!!!!

 

Brook trout - CRAA is heavily involved in trying to protect their habitat and rehabilitate lost populations. We are also involved in helping any migratory brookies as rare as they are (wait till my next post).

 

Brook trout - as Louis noted, are in serious trouble in the headwaters and a sewage treatment plant appears to be the culprit. Some water samples and fish survival data has been taken, but no major action has been made by the group involved to stop the problem (that I am aware of). One site that normally produced 50-150 brookies every summer is now just about void of trout. Very sad. Most brook trout populations that have been lost in Ontario were damaged by habitat destruction, dams, ground water takering or polution, water polution and my favourite, stocking onto wild populations and breeding out the wild genetics (oops). Because browns and bows are able to survive in the degraded habitat and have grown populations they are often blamed for the brook trout decline. Just like lamprey have been demonized for the lake trout crash in the 1940's, but that was recently proven to be pollution that caused the crash. I grew up fishing two major brook trout creeks that are both all but void of trout today. The first (upper Pine) was supported solely by stocking in the 70's. Steelhead utilize the habitat too and some blamed them. Nope, it was stocking and the 5 acrea lake that warmed the water 5-6C just upstream. On the other (tiny trib of the Geen) it was over fishing. Any brookie over 3" was taken and this remote stream had boot tracks and full creels from many a trespasser.

 

Atlantics - while genetically they are not identical, the specie is still a native fish. The extinct population was derived from ocean salmon 10,000 years ago. The specie adds a new component to the fishery. A few hundred Atlantic's are not taking away any other salmonids so why all the fuss?

 

American strays - I noted Clofchick said 1/3 of eastern tribs fish are strays? NY clips about 1/2 their stocked rainbows every year. Yet in the Ganny US clips account for less than 1% of the run. On the Credit (largest north shore river) US clups account for 3-10 fish out of 1000-1500 per year (or about 0.5%). Accounting for unclipped NY stockers this still only gives us 1-2% NY strays, not 33%. Stray rates are very low, as we have only had 2 Credit fish reported from eastern tribs, out of several hundred tag returns (one in duffins, one in Bowmanville).

 

Steelhead declines - Some MNR bios beleive it is caused by lower lake survival, yet this is not supported by other Great Lakes research and annual fluctuations in river juvenile production. Rivers produce young based greatly on the summer weather and winter freezing. Some year classes are huge (like 1992, 1994, 2008, 2009), others are very poor. The subsequent return rates in following years changes based on this. While the lake is a bottleneck to survival, runs can easily increase 50% from one good year class. What causes the strong year class to then slowly disapear? Angler over-harvest and natural mortality. We cannot control the latter, but we can control the harvest. Look at www.northshoresteelhead.com for more info. Look at research links for portage creek.

 

The bottom line - we need to see a lot more of you getting involved in rehab efforts! Many hands make light work.

 

Tight lines,

 

John

[Steve]

"A few hundred Atlantic's are not taking away any other salmonids so why all the fuss? "

 

John, say what? A few hundred?

[CLofchik]

American strays - I noted Clofchick said 1/3 of eastern tribs fish are strays? NY clips about 1/2 their stocked rainbows every year. Yet in the Ganny US clips account for less than 1% of the run. On the Credit (largest north shore river) US clups account for 3-10 fish out of 1000-1500 per year (or about 0.5%). Accounting for unclipped NY stockers this still only gives us 1-2% NY strays, not 33%. Stray rates are very low, as we have only had 2 Credit fish reported from eastern tribs, out of several hundred tag returns (one in duffins, one in Bowmanville)...

 

Then explain the fantails that show up every year? They can only come from NY hatcheries and there's a few caught out of the Ganny every year, and I've seen atleast two in the flesh come out of the Wilmot. Given they're a genetic hatchery anomaly that only happens with one fish out of a thousand, if there's one fantail odds are there are several hundred of his hatchery brethren around. Not dozens.

 

If you have a run of 10,000 fish, then an extra 500 doesn't really have an impact. But when that run drops to 3000, suddenly that 5% has become a more substantial part of your run.

 

 

Oh and apparently you missed the memo from the MNR, the correct wording should be "take away all other salmonids for a few dozen Atlantics".

Edited September 20, 2009 by CLofchik