HST Tax Grab

[Dara]

Single parent welfare aside.

Child care is what you need to go to work to make money. If you don't make enough at work to pay a sitter, why should I pay your sitter.

One parent can go to work, one can take care of the kids.

This is why taxes keep going up. To give little sectors of society special perks.

Education is a totally other matter. Yes, the population needs to be educated so the country can prosper.

Mr Fishnwire, you got your education, now consider your taxes paying for that.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Dara

[Fishnwire]

Dara, I think you missed my point a little bit. I realize that children need to be educated and don't begrudge seeing my tax dollars go toward that end. I thought I made that clear. My point was that although one's natural reaction might be to feel that the cost of educating other's children might seem like an unfair burden to bear, if you think about it for a minute, any clear-thinking person can see that it's the best (and only) option. I was suggesting that it could be argued child care is a simular scenario.

 

It's all fine and good for you to say " single parents aside"...but what exactly do you mean by that? Single parents make up a significant portion of the population, they have problems they'd like to see addressed and they're voting citiziens...it would sure make things easier for the whole system if we could simply cast them aside, but that's not the kind of thing Canadians do. We're better than that. I'm not suggesting we give low-income people free beer, I'm saying maybe they should have someplace safe and affordable for their young children to stay while they're at work. You would really deny them that?

 

Even if you only care about your wallet, you can see it's cheaper to pay for day-care so someone can work than to pay them to stay home not working, not paying taxes and possibly getting other forms of government assistance.

[ch312]

I don't understand why all the anger is directed to the Liberals in Ontario.

 

seriously?

 

i cant figure out why anyone even votes for those dirty...(use your imagination to end this sentence)

[Dara]

Dara, I think you missed my point a little bit. I realize that children need to be educated and don't begrudge seeing my tax dollars go toward that end. I thought I made that clear. My point was that although one's natural reaction might be to feel that the cost of educating other's children might seem like an unfair burden to bear, if you think about it for a minute, any clear-thinking person can see that it's the best (and only) option. I was suggesting that it could be argued child care is a simular scenario.

 

It's all fine and good for you to say " single parents aside"...but what exactly do you mean by that? Single parents make up a significant portion of the population, they have problems they'd like to see addressed and they're voting citiziens...it would sure make things easier for the whole system if we could simply cast them aside, but that's not the kind of thing Canadians do. We're better than that. I'm not suggesting we give low-income people free beer, I'm saying maybe they should have someplace safe and affordable for their young children to stay while they're at work. You would really deny them that?

 

Even if you only care about your wallet, you can see it's cheaper to pay for day-care so someone can work than to pay them to stay home not working, not paying taxes and possibly getting other forms of government assistance.

 

Yes, low income single parents could use more help

I do think welfare payments are too low right now.

I would prefer that welfare rates are raised so that those single people can be there to raise their children rather than having the "system" raise them.

Why have kids if you are just going to hand them over to a daycare place

Child care being proposed won't be specifically for them. It will be for everybody regardless of income.

If we keep going along the lines we are, pretty soon the government will be doing everything for us and we will just work for the services they provide.

Maybe they can start a government lawn care service so that I can work saturdays too, you know, to make enough to pay the tax these services will cost

[Fishnwire]

Yes, low income single parents could use more help

I do think welfare payments are too low right now.

I would prefer that welfare rates are raised so that those single people can be there to raise their children rather than having the "system" raise them.

Why have kids if you are just going to hand them over to a daycare place

Child care being proposed won't be specifically for them. It will be for everybody regardless of income.

If we keep going along the lines we are, pretty soon the government will be doing everything for us and we will just work for the services they provide.

Maybe they can start a government lawn care service so that I can work saturdays too, you know, to make enough to pay the tax these services will cost

 

 

I'm confused. You want the government to take active steps to get working people to quit their jobs so they can stay home on welfare? How's that better for anyone? Requiring day-care for the few years between when a new parent returns to work and when the child is old enough for kindergarten is hardly "having the system raise them." It's a necessity for most working people. Forget about single parents...do you think one parent staying home is a financial possibility for most Canadians? Most parents would love nothing better than to stay home and spend every possible minute with their young children, but simply do not have that option. You ask "why have children if you're just going to hand them over to a daycare place?" Are you kidding? You think everybody who uses daycare is being a fundamentally poor parent? Just because you wouldn't benefit from some form of state-assisted child-care, it doesn't mean that thousands of others wouldn't, or that those options shouldn't be explored.

 

The difference between day-care and lawn-care is that enough people are affected by day-care to make it an election issue. That's why we're talking about it. Because so many voters care. Because children are affected. I don't want the government "doing everything for us" either, but that's not what this is about. It's about them attempting to address a problem facing a lot of Canadains...that's what the government is (supposed to be) there for. No?

 

Like I said before, we're not talking about free beer to people who don't have jobs...it's a safe place for working people's kids to stay for a few hours each day while their parents are being productive, tax-paying members of society. I still can't believe anyone would deny them that.

 

Dara I could be way off base here, but it sounds a little bit like you were able to get by without the need for assisted child-care, and maybe you feel that as such, everyone should be equally non-reliant. Unfortunately, not everyone has the same advantages, or faces the same challenges as everyone else. That's what sometimes makes a policy which is necessary to members of one group unpopular with members of another...but nonetheless, still in the best interest of the whole.

 

I have a feeling neither one of us is going to change the other's mind on this issue. So we may have to just agree to disagree. It's been enjoyable talking with you though, and look forward to further exchanges of ideas with you anytime.

 

Cheers and tight lines!

[Dara]

Mostly I just feel that our government is suffocating us and wasting way too much money. Every time somebody comes up with another want, it raises taxes for everybody.

If they want this, then program, then cancel something else.

If they cancelled the gun registration they would have money for child care, or some anyway. but somebody out there wants gun control.

What about all the laws we pay to make that are totally rediculous.

Child helmet law for bicycles. You ever see this enforced? Do you have any idea how many millions of taxpayer dollars it cost to make that law.

How bout the boating license. We all agree it is pretty much useless. That money could go to child care.

Cancelling the spring bear hunt. How much did that cost. And for no reason other than election kickbacks.

How about we figure out what we really need and get that, instead of getting everything some politician decides to make an election issue. All they do with election issues is promise what will get them in and then use that to pass a whole bunch of laws to further restrict us.

I was at a wedding last week. There was free wine on the tables, and for some reason you can't sell any other alchol from the bar till the free stuff has been removed from the tables. Why, because they may loose 5 bucks in taxes. Its getting rediculous.

[Canuck2fan]

seriously?

 

i cant figure out why anyone even votes for those dirty...(use your imagination to end this sentence)

 

I have the EXACT issue trying to figure out how people can do the same with them Ontario Conservative retreads in Ottawa. That having been said I still believe our democractic process is worth having to wonder about these things. LOL

[Chris]

I like everyone here do not like to pay unfair taxes... For that very reason what I don't understand why all the anger is directed to the Liberals in Ontario. The Conservatives in Ottawa have been doing everything possible since they got in to make the HST in Ontario a reality. They have held back transfer payments and refuse to collect PST at the border. It also the FEDS not the provincial government who are going to foot the bill for the so called bribe, McGuinty stated that the HST would not go ahead without significant start up money from the Feds!!!! So why would Ottawa bribe us? Because they are going to reap billions from doing this too.

 

Even overlooking those facts I still don't see why people on here feel it is perfectly acceptable to pay GST on those same items they are complaining about having to pay the harmonized tax on after July 2010..... To me if the tax is bogus at the provincial level it still is at the federal level and we HAVE been paying that. So where is the uproar against the Feds for backstabbing us all along with those taxes?

 

The thing everyone will come to realize at some point in their life is that ALL politicians are working for big business and big business don't give a crap about anyone but themselves and their bottom line. Conservative....Liberal....NDP.....all one and the same. After their nasty and hateful debates they all go to the taxpayer funded restaurant at parliament hill together for lunch. They give you a choice to make you think you are making a difference. Anyone who still believes that politicians are there to help the people have been caught up in their grand scheme. Everyone used to laugh at Lundboy, but if you even read just a few of the links he provided you would start to see how the whole thing operates. BUT....it's easier not to take the time to read those links and to cry "conspiracy theorist".......and that's exactly how politicians/big business want you to react. They wouldn't wield as much power if we all weren't such a bunch of sheep.

[Roy]

You're right, Chris. People are intimidated by government. Most politicians left 350K per year jobs to take 100Kto "serve the public" wink wink, nudge nudge. Face it folks... we have an ultra socialist government, and I'm using the polite term here.

[Fishnwire]

Face it folks... we have an ultra socialist government, and I'm using the polite term here.

 

 

I could not disagree more. Our government is controlled by and interested primarily in the best interests of big business and the owing class. I think most of us would accept that as fact. Nothing could be further from the very definition of "socialism."

 

You're a smart guy Roy, I'm sure you know the difference between Socialism and Fascism. I was surprised to see you make that comment.

 

Heck, compared to the lap-dogs for the ultra-wealthy we have right now, I'd welcome a splash of "ultra-socialist" in the mix. How much worse could they do? Someone who cares more about working people than taking contributions from big oil and the insurance companies would be a welcome change, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Unfortunately, regardless of polital stripes or best intentions, elections are generally won by who spends the most money at election time. To get that kind of money, you simply have to accept contributions from the wealthy. Of course you'll require their "generosity" come re-election time, so you make darn sure you keep them happy in the meantime. Working people can't hope to get anything other than screwed.

[Billy Bob]

Face it folks... we have an ultra socialist government, and I'm using the polite term here.

 

I agree Roy with you 100% and unfortunately our government is also heading that way now..........

[Jer]

I could not disagree more. Our government is controlled by and interested primarily in the best interests of big business and the owing class. I think most of us would accept that as fact. Nothing could be further from the very definition of "socialism."

 

You're a smart guy Roy, I'm sure you know the difference between Socialism and Fascism. I was surprised to see you make that comment.

 

Heck, compared to the lap-dogs for the ultra-wealthy we have right now, I'd welcome a splash of "ultra-socialist" in the mix. How much worse could they do? Someone who cares more about working people than taking contributions from big oil and the insurance companies would be a welcome change, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Unfortunately, regardless of polital stripes or best intentions, elections are generally won by who spends the most money at election time. To get that kind of money, you simply have to accept contributions from the wealthy. Of course you'll require their "generosity" come re-election time, so you make darn sure you keep them happy in the meantime. Working people can't hope to get anything other than screwed.

 

 

I don't think Roy is disagreeing with you. The Nazis called themselves a "socialist" party as well.

 

Big business owns government (facism)...government owns big business (communism)...it all works out to the same thing...the little guy gets screwed.

[Fishnwire]

I don't think Roy is disagreeing with you. The Nazis called themselves a "socialist" party as well.

 

Big business owns government (facism)...government owns big business (communism)...it all works out to the same thing...the little guy gets screwed.

 

 

Calling yourself a socialist and implymenting socialist policies are two different things. National Socialist Worker's Party sounded better than World-Domination-Bent Holocust-Creating Rascists. One cannot look to the Nazis under Hitler as an example of socialism is my point. It's an example of the total absence of socialist policy.

 

All I'm saying is that if you agree that big business has too much control over government policy making, and say it's a result of an "ultra-socialism"...you're contadicting yourself. I'm not a socialist myself or anything like that. I just figure one should know his enemy. You might feel we live in an "ultra-socialist" country because of things like Medicare, public education, and social programs...you could blame those things on socialism, but you simply can't blame big business' strangle-hold on policy on anything remotely resembling socialism.

[Billy Bob]

Catering to the many special interest/minority groups while using (forcing) my money equals socialism in my eyes.........

[Jonny]

Back to the matter at hand... that being... we Ontarians should be well aware of the proposals that are going to be put in place re: this HST (tax). It wouldn't hurt to make some noise about it while it still has not come into effect, and if it STILL does, remember who gave it to us!

[Fishnwire]

From reading this thread it would seem an argument could be made that both the Conservative Federal government and the Liberal Provincial government are equally to blame. Are you suggesting we vote NDP across the board from now on?

[Dara]

From reading this thread it would seem an argument could be made that both the Conservative Federal government and the Liberal Provincial government are equally to blame. Are you suggesting we vote NDP across the board from now on?

 

 

My suggestion is to band together as a country and not give any MP or MPP a second term.

A second term gives them a pension. If you want to be heard, let them try that on for a while.

 

Somehow we gotta make these guys understand that we can't afford anything more

Edited August 4, 2009 by Dara

[Jonny]

As I understand it the HST is a policy that the federal Liberals brought into being. The Conservatives at least cut the GST by 2% from 7% to 5%, even though they're pushing harmonization.

 

What has McGuinty done for us? An expensive-as-hell health tax and now the HST. Too long in power --- time to kick him and the provincial Liberals out next chance we get.

 

But those who say we are replacing one bunch of crooks with another bunch of crooks have a point. The only thing we seem to have the power to do is make sure that one bunch of crooks don't get too comfortable.

[CLofchik]

What has McGuinty done for us?

 

Turned Ontario from one of the most robust economies in the world into a have-not province.

[Fishnwire]

Turned Ontario from one of the most robust economies in the world into a have-not province.

 

 

It's not like the rest of the country (or world for that matter) is doing so hot right now. I would never defend McGuinty but pretty much everybody who's been in charge in the last year or so was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Liberals and Conservatives alike found themselves in the middle of an economic crap-storm and the best anyone seemed to be able to do was hold on for the ride. I'm more interested in seeing who's able to pick up the pieces at this point, than point fingers at who screwed up.

[JohnF]

Friends should never argue politics with friends. The dirt rubs off and spoils otherwise good relationships. The smart move is to leave the politicians to roll around in the dirt with each other and spare the rest of us the stench. We Canucks are resilient and so far have been able to bounce back from whatever pollution the pols have brought down on us. For instance, paying too much tax is a small price for living here.

 

JF

[Jonny]

Friends should never argue politics with friends. The dirt rubs off and spoils otherwise good relationships. The smart move is to leave the politicians to roll around in the dirt with each other and spare the rest of us the stench. We Canucks are resilient and so far have been able to bounce back from whatever pollution the pols have brought down on us. For instance, paying too much tax is a small price for living here.

 

While all that is true enough, JF, it's part of what makes us so "governable".

 

Personally I can find many points of political agreement with friends, maybe not always on the party but on things like not leaving one party in power for too long. And many a political discussion over a hunting or fishing campfire has been enlightening and... I daresay... fun, as long as we know when to call it quits, which we seem to be good at.

 

Once in a while you run across somebody with too little sense. I recall a pheasant hunt where we had a new member to the group who wanted to talk politics - his politics - ad nauseam. He was basically ignored by the rest of us and was not invited back to the group the following year.

[JPD]

This new harmonized tax won't help anyone except the government... businesses will have to charge more but it's not their money... their remittances will just get bigger every month... as for the consumer end of things.. I had the opportunity to talk to a PST Auditor while he audited my company and he even said that the $1000 rebate was bogus since it will cost the average Canadian household $5000 more per year!!!

 

The only thing that will be easier on the business end is the ease of remitting once rather than separately and for the businesses that have to track taxable items that fall into different categories like Tax Exempt, PST only, GST only or Both Taxes... Now I'm wondering what they are going to do with the liquor tax?

 

They are all crooks but somehow I think we as Canadians will find a way!

 

JP

[CLofchik]

I'm more interested in seeing who's able to pick up the pieces at this point, than point fingers at who screwed up.

 

I'm more interested, now that whatever excess cash has been squandered during what passes for bountiful times, in who ISN'T going to screw me for my last dollar now that times are tough and every level of what passes for leadership is scrambling for cash.

 

blah blah blah happy shiney apathetic sheople blah blah blah.......For instance, paying too much tax is a small price for living here.

 

If the Provincial and Federal taxes are harmonized as proposed, people in S.Ontario earning between 36k-80k/yr will be taxed around 60% of their income, and if they take advanage of every possible subsidy and resource will be lucky to see $0.30 on the dollar. Just curious, but exactly how much of your money does the gov't have to steal before you'd say enough is enough?

 

 

They are all crooks but somehow I think we as Canadians will find a way!

 

Same as always, cheat. I already do a ton of shopping on native reserves and the US, can't remember the last thing with a $100+ value I actually bought from an Ontario retail outlet.

[Chris]

For instance, paying too much tax is a small price for living here.

 

That kind of thinking is what got us the tax burden we have now.....and will let things continue to get worse in the future.