WHO OWNS THE WATER??

[lilkynan]

Was fishing Bronte Creek once, and the Warden showed up. Told me that between the QEW and Hiway 5, it was property of Bronte Creek Park and to be able to stand in the water and fish, I was 50 feet north of the QEW in the water, that I had to have a day pass to walk there. Not the water - but the river bottom. Thank goodness for lawyers!!!

[Shaun Rickard]

The problem then Dutch, becomes one of diminishing availability. I understand the concerns of marina owners. I, however, am not a boat thief. I will not be treated like one. I actually own the water as a private citizen more than the marina company. What gives them the right to park their boats on MY water? Same deal. If I want to fish, it is my right to do so and I will not waiver. The police won't tell me to leave. If they suggest I should leave in the interest of peace, I will ask them to tell the complainer to shut the heck up in the interests of peace instead.

I have a legal right to fish. I will fish. There comes a day when we run out of other places to go. Step up now and say 'No, thanks, I'll stay here". Don't be a goof about it, just say no and ignore them.

 

Well said Rick!

[sirfish]

Sorry Snag, they were within thier right as representatives of the marina. Most Marinas especially around T.O negotiate marina boundaries into the water.

But on the flipside and there being no boats they should have just looked the other way or at least informed you about it for when the boats are in.

Down in Port colborne the marina management enforces this to the letter but during hardwater tend to let it slide as long as your not on the docks or near the winter stored boats.

[camillj]

Another interesting point which hasnt come up ... just because something is under 'federal control' or even under 'governement (any level) ownership' - DOES NOT means its yours mine our ours ... and does not mean we have free access to it. Land, buildings or Water.

 

 

There is a LOT of government property which is not open to public access ... and alot of it has been placed understewardship or leased .... there is a reason people pay for these rights .... because they are not free.

 

 

As specific example is on the southern portion of lake scogug ...from what I understand theres a whole lot of Water on lake Scugog which is deemed private property ... and alot of folks get chased off it every year - even though they are in a boat and accessed via the 'public' water ... Id be interested to hear from anyone whos been charged there ... and whether they

were successful in their defense

[fishless]

hi just had to laugh about this marina.my understanding is no one owns the water as long as you have not done anything illegal to get to the water you are permitted to use.people with cottages don't own the water.they own from the high water mark in the spring.a police officer is wrong in telling you to beat it.just because they are officers doesn't mean they know all.this is my understanding of the rules regarding the water in ontario.jamie

[lookinforwalleye]

Another interesting point which hasnt come up ... just because something is under 'federal control' or even under 'governement (any level) ownership' - DOES NOT means its yours mine our ours ... and does not mean we have free access to it. Land, buildings or Water.

There is a LOT of government property which is not open to public access ... and alot of it has been placed understewardship or leased .... there is a reason people pay for these rights .... because they are not free.

As specific example is on the southern portion of lake scogug ...from what I understand theres a whole lot of Water on lake Scugog which is deemed private property ... and alot of folks get chased off it every year - even though they are in a boat and accessed via the 'public' water ... Id be interested to hear from anyone whos been charged there ... and whether they

were successful in their defense

 

I have spent the last 4 summers at Goreski`s on Lake Scugog and I have never heard of any water on Scugog being privately owned or heard of anybody being chased off it. I would certainly be interested in more info on that.

Goreski`s put up no fishing in the marina signs 2 years ago seems to work i have not seen anybody fishing with the exception of the local campers and kids,are the signs legal I don`t really know I do know they were getting complaints from boaters seems they were getting a little tired of guys in bass boats bouncing jigs off their boats

[camillj]

The area I am speaking of is south of the causeway (at hwy 7) ... just before the bait shop ... if you look south on that bay as you drive by there are signs posted way out in the water ... someone told me theres a story behind it dating back to when they flooded Scugog and the guy who owned the land ... now flooded ... did some kind of a deal with the govt ...

 

I am sure one of our OFC Scugog locals probably could elaborate better than I.... but from what I have heard if you venture over there (even in a boat in the summer) they come and chase you out.

[lookinforwalleye]

Your story sounds very plausable since it is a man made lake,I always assumed that area was a sanctuary I would be interested in hearing the story.

[camillj]

Here's a little excerpt from an article I found on the subject ... the key being navigable waters (over private land) being used for navigation... vs fishing or hunting .... I know theres controversy ... but its definitely worth knowing before we throw our almighty rights at the courts and hope to be found blameless ....

 

 

"After listening to all the arguments, Justice C. Boyd reserved his decision until January 6, 1891 when he handed down his judgement stating that the defendents Messrs. Davis and Blong were wrong. He said, "the defendents (Davis and Blong) are in the wrong; they came upon the place, not for purposes of navigation, but to shoot ducks against the protest of the plaintiff (Beatty). The custom relied upon of persons or of the public going to shoot or fish in that locality year after year does not afford any defence in law agains the private rights of the owner. The fact of the place being to some extent navigable water, does not justify any interference with private rights of fishing and fowling.

Having regard to the novelty of the action, and the fact that the plaintiff has not entirely succeeded because of the issue as to navigable or non-navigable water I give judgement against the defendents, with $40, which I access for damages and costs."

The judgement is interpreted as follows:

Ownership of land or water, though not enclosed, gives to the proprietor under the common law, the sole and exclusive right to fish, fowl, hunt, or shoot within the precincts of that private property, subject to game laws, if any; and this exclusive right is not diminished by the fact that the land may be covered by navigable water. In such case the public can use the water solely for bona fide purposes of navigation, and must not unnecessarily disturb or interfere with the private rights of fishing and shooting.

Where such waters have become navigable owing to artificial public works, the private right to fishing and fowling of the owner of the soil must be exerciesed concurrently with the public servitude for passage."

 

The entire story is here : http://www.scugogheritage.com/misc/scugogmarsh.htm

[lookinforwalleye]

Thanks for posting the link it was an interesting read.

[xrap]

Just like to ask something. You said that many boats have been vandilized and broken into. But don't they take the boats out of the marina's for winter?

[snag]

Just like to ask something. You said that many boats have been vandilized and broken into. But don't they take the boats out of the marina's for winter?

 

Yes,

 

But not all.

 

The marina dry storage is protected by the lack of water access during the soft-water season.

 

The villians entered the property by ice and broke into the dry-docked boats that were both in outdoor and indoor storage.

[LeXXington]

Too add fodder to the arguments here,

 

On Native land (water rights)

You can travers the water, enjoy it for recreational use but. They own the water for fishing and hunting rights.

 

I can't seem to find the offical notices but marina's and harbours that are man-made such as dug out might be considered different than ones that are made in the lake.

 

Thanks

[Mark Kulik]

If the thieves had driven a car to the marina would they ban cars driving on that public road?I grew up near the Humber as a youngster I was told , quite rudely at the same marina to leave, knowing I was not on their property I decided to stay and fish, no police were called, I can't see how they can keep you off water, being an angler can be very frustrating, thats why I don't fish a lot of steelhead.

[ehg]

Thanks Camillj for that link explaining how the 'syndicate' gained control over the land and waters of Lake Scugog,

south of Hwy 7. So the term 'navigable' was used only for people in transit not for use recreationally.

 

The owners of that area law firm, Osler etc... still exist, and have the top pile of floors at First Canadian Place. I've worked for them.

 

Very interesting read! Nothing is black n' white.

Here's a little excerpt from an article I found on the subject ... the key being navigable waters (over private land) being used for navigation... vs fishing or hunting .... I know theres controversy ... but its definitely worth knowing beforehand.

 

http://www.scugogheritage.com/misc/scugogmarsh.htm

 

Great post.

 

ehg

[charlesn]

I've noticed that both sides of this issue have made some matter of fact postings and that this issue seems to result in confusion for all parties from every viewpoint. Maybe that is part of the problem?

 

Wouldn't it be nice to have things be clear so that we can know what our rights are and also so that we can avoid situations or confrontations like the one snag had.

 

I've fished all my life and as a boater for 10 years and I've never been able to answer concretely one way or the other whether fishing in a marina is legal or not. And not from lack of searching on-line either. I've been kicked out of several marinas, bays, canals and when I asked other local anglers, they did not know if it was legal either. I don't want to cause trouble or a disturbance so I will always just leave if asked (regardless of how politely asked), but if armed with the knowledge that I had a right to be there, maybe I would be more willing to take a stand and educate on behalf of fellow boaters in the future. But as it is, how can one find out for sure when there does not seem to be a resource with the "final say"? I don't want to be a jackass and find out later I was in the wrong because I respect all users of our bodies of water and I'm out there for relaxation and fun, not to spoil anyone's day.

 

Charles

[Terry]

the big problem is..........

it depends who you ask.as to the answer you get..just like the MNR regs. every cop every CO has a different take on what the law states.........

and when I got kicked out of a marina, after the cop told me he was not sure of the law but it was his job to defuse the situation, as he put it, so by making me get my boat out of there solved the immediate problem..in his eyes

so much for rights

[charlesn]

Like you say Terry, not even the people doing the enforcement know for sure, so it is hard to really say who is right and who is wrong.

 

The angler/hunter harassment law is definitely something that needs to be enforced more to protect our rights. At the same time, it doesn't help to have prominent tv personalities advocating throwing rocks at people legally fishing around cottager's docks.

 

Charles

[camillj]

At the same time, it doesn't help to have prominent tv personalities advocating throwing rocks at people legally fishing around cottager's docks.

 

Charles

 

Wow !! I missed that one ... surely theres more to that story ....

 

 

Thanks ehg ... Yes I thought so too ... actually if I am not mistaken the firm is (or was) called Osler Hoskin and Harcourt ... I had a friend who worked for them in the 80's

[charlesn]

Last season a Chronzy told his viewers that if a bass boat came fishing near their dock to throw rocks at them. He later apologized.

 

I think there was a thread on OFC about it. I will try to google the story for you.

 

Charles

[walleyed]

What good is a marina in the wintertime?