Todays economy and strikes

[snookey318]

"Those who can do, and those who cannot teach" very truthfull saying in my book. Unfortunately the Ontario taxpayer is being held hostage by one of the strongest unions in the country who manage to get a 10% raise when others are just fighting for there jobs being there the next day.

 

I was dating a teacher in Toronto earlier this year and she would work a six hour day (when she didnt call in sick) and get the usual 2.5 months holidays and yet still recieve $82,000 a year. If she worked during the summer you can image what here final income would be for the year. Her idea of stress was 7 year olds not listening in class. Thats terrible, what about the real world where you have to PERFORM and answer to your boss on a daily basis or you will be fired. Whats troublesome is that this group seem to think they are entitled to yearly increases just because their union has the public by the balls.

 

Reality check: Teachers are like a jack of all trades, if they didnt teach they certainly WOULD NOT earn $100,000 a year in another career field. 100K is a lot of money that should be a result of HARD WORK or a skill set in high demand. I think many would agree with me that most teachers do not possess or demonstrate either of these traits.

 

Didnt Reagan fire all of the striking air traffic controllers in the 80's?

[cram]

"Those who can do, and those who cannot teach" very truthfull saying in my book. Unfortunately the Ontario taxpayer is being held hostage by one of the strongest unions in the country who manage to get a 10% raise when others are just fighting for there jobs being there the next day.

 

I was dating a teacher in Toronto earlier this year and she would work a six hour day (when she didnt call in sick) and get the usual 2.5 months holidays and yet still recieve $82,000 a year. If she worked during the summer you can image what here final income would be for the year. Her idea of stress was 7 year olds not listening in class. Thats terrible, what about the real world where you have to PERFORM and answer to your boss on a daily basis or you will be fired. Whats troublesome is that this group seem to think they are entitled to yearly increases just because their union has the public by the balls.

 

Reality check: Teachers are like a jack of all trades, if they didnt teach they certainly WOULD NOT earn $100,000 a year in another career field. 100K is a lot of money that should be a result of HARD WORK or a skill set in high demand. I think many would agree with me that most teachers do not possess or demonstrate either of these traits.

 

Didnt Reagan fire all of the striking air traffic controllers in the 80's?

 

 

Snookey -- i'm assuming you don't have kids, right?

 

btw - average is 71k, not 100.

 

Headhunter -- do most of the teachers show up 15 mins before and leave 15 mins after?

[snookey318]

Snookey -- i'm assuming you don't have kids, right?

 

btw - average is 71k, not 100.

 

Headhunter -- do most of the teachers show up 15 mins before and leave 15 mins after?

 

 

Actually two young boys that take a lot of my time and money but their great.

[albany_guide]

Also, there is no chance that an elementary school teacher needs the prep time of a highschool teacher. Sorry if that offends anybody.

 

 

Well that is just an indication of ignorance right there. I have taught in elementary, secondary, and am currently teaching at a college. How about you? Any teaching experience or are you just talking out of your arse? Just one example....try setting up multiple bulletin boards in a classroom every week using students work...since manufactured products are now frowned upon. See how long that takes. Having taught a number of grades all the way through the system, including post secondary, I can tell you that preparing an effective lesson, evaluating student progress, maintianing a bright, visual classroom conducive to learning, and other demands of the profession for elementary teachers are not less time consuming than secondary.

 

People assume they know what it takes to be a teacher since they went through the education system. That's like me saying I know what it's like to be a bank manager since I'm a customer of the bank. Experiencing the product of a profession does not indicate an understanding of what that profession entails. People need to educate themselves and quit assuming they know what it's like to do someone else's job.

[Headhunter]

Cram, I know where you are going with this and I agree with you... most Teachers do go beyond the required by law hours... however, many don't.

If you recall from my earlier post, from yesterday, I started off by saying that most Teachers are good at what they do! However, like most things in life, it's the few who don't contribute that require the lion's share of the adminstrators' time.

Just to clarify my position... I have met with and spoken to many excellent teachers who I would not hesitate to bring my kids to... however I have also encountered too many who are simply not in it for the right reasons. It certainly does take the "right" kind of person to be a strong teacher, unfortunately the one who aren't and have no intension of ever being more than they are now, are protected by the union. It paints a bad picture for the rest of the group.

My beef is with the union and their protect the employee at any cost attitude. Too many useless people in a profession that has no real accountability or ramifications for incompetance. And don't forget the sense of entitlement that so many have!

HH

Edited February 13, 2009 by Headhunter

[cram]

Actually two young boys that take a lot of my time and money but their great.

 

So if you value your kids education, and teachers are such morons, did you pull your kids out of the public system and put them in private school? Or home school?

Edited February 13, 2009 by cram

[cram]

Cram, I know where you are going with this and I agree with you... most Teachers do go beyond the required by law hours... however, many don't.

If you recall from my earlier post, from yesterday, I started off by saying that most Teachers are good at what they do! However, like most things in life, it's the few who don't contribute that require the lion's share of the adminstrators' time.

Just to clarify my position... I have met with and spoken to many excellent teachers who I would not hesitate to bring my kids to... however I have also encountered too many who are simply not in it for the right reasons. It certainly does take the "right" kind of person to be a strong teacher, unfortunately the one who aren't and have no intension of ever being more than they are now, are protected by the union. It paints a bad picture for the rest of the group.

My beef is with the union and their protect the employee at any cost attitude. Too many useless people in a profession that has no real accountability or ramifications for incompetance. And don't forget the sense of entitlement that so many have!

HH

 

I get that. Unions are crap. I so prefer a free market. Not sure how it works in that profession though.....you'd have good teachers earning more and crappy teachers earning less (all good things), but you'd also have good teachers aggregating on good neighbourhoods and leaving the less desirable ones.

 

Curious - what does your wife think about the extra funding for students? I assume she can't be steamed about that.

[snookey318]

Yet you don't value your kids' education. Interesting.

 

Of course I do.

 

I believe that a teacher who is payed a maximum of $55,000 a year can provide the same proper education to my children that a $80,000 (sorry, $90,000 in 4 years) teacher has the ability too.

[dp3200]

Damn do the knives come out when someone is precieved to get more then others how much of this hate is just plain old ENVY.My parents taught me to go to school and work hard and you get rewarded in life .I went to school allmost 19 years if I added all the time it took to get 2 ba,s and my masters , now im told Im lazy and I DONT LIVE in the REAL WORLD (damn snag you had to tell them about the tinfoil) and I should be working for minimum wage . I work for the goverment and after reading this I guess I should BE ASHAMED that I make over 100,000 a year . SORRY GUYS can I still be your friends at least I work in water quality IM not A TEACHER ..

.Envy (also called invidiousness) may be defined as an emotion that "occurs when a person lacks another’s [perceived] superior quality, achievement, or possession and either desires it or wishes that the other lacked it."[1] It can also derive from a sense of low self-esteem that results from an upward social comparison threatening a person's self image: another person has something that the envier considers to be important to have. If the other person is perceived to be similar to the envier, the aroused envy will be particularly intense, because it signals to the envier that it just as well could have been him or her who had the desired object.[2][3]

 

 

I believe the issue that most people have is with teachers striking if they don't get what they want when everyone else understands that if you want more, you should just work harder, become more qualified, choose another profession, etc. Some examples that are offered seem to make it pretty obvious that there is a lot of room for teachers to do so if they wish, but they don't. At least that is my issue with it. It has nothing to do with "Envy".

 

There is a serious problem with the sense of entitlement that some people have - if you don't get what you want, you find another job or you suck it up. If teaching was an unfair profession, nobody would do it. The fact that people do it and they don't go find something better is because what they are getting is fair.

 

I don't care if teachers work 5, 40 or 100 hours a week. I just think that they should be paid based on what the market for their skills and outputs determine, and not what some over-powered union demands.

[cram]

Of course I do.

 

I believe that a teacher who is payed a maximum of $55,000 a year can provide the same proper education to my children that a $80,000 (sorry, $90,000 in 4 years) teacher has the ability too.

 

If teachers are such morons and you do value your kids education you should pull them out of the public system and put them in private or homeschool.

 

btw -- 90k is for maximum tenure and maximum upgrading (taking courses through thsummer etc). The average is 71. I bet most teachers in their 30's are making 60-70k, after 4 years of university and 1 yr of teachers college.

 

We just gave $4B to the auto industry to pay guys who are making 140k for standing on a line (i have lots of friends in teh auto industry, and even they say they're overpaid), yet everyone's belly-aching over 700mm (1/6th what we paid the autoworkers), most of which IS BEING APPLIED TO STUDENT FUNDING, NOT TEACHERS.

 

These are your kids, and your neighbours kids, and your brother/sister's kids. You probably spent more on beer last year than you did on school tax.

[cram]

I believe the issue that most people have is with teachers striking if they don't get what they want when everyone else understands that if you want more, you should just work harder, become more qualified, choose another profession, etc. Some examples that are offered seem to make it pretty obvious that there is a lot of room for teachers to do so if they wish, but they don't. At least that is my issue with it. It has nothing to do with "Envy".

 

There is a serious problem with the sense of entitlement that some people have - if you don't get what you want, you find another job or you suck it up. If teaching was an unfair profession, nobody would do it. The fact that people do it and they don't go find something better is because what they are getting is fair.

 

I don't care if teachers work 5, 40 or 100 hours a week. I just think that they should be paid based on what the market for their skills and outputs determine, and not what some over-powered union demands.

 

How do you find the *market value*?

 

If you look at private schools are the teachers makign more or less?

[dp3200]

How do you find the *market value*?

 

If you look at private schools are the teachers makign more or less?

 

 

The same way that millions of other wages are determined. Pay whatever it takes to get enough qualified teachers. If salaries were too high you would have more teachers than jobs, and if they were too low there wouldn't be enough teachers to go around.

 

I know someone that was making $150K as a IT project manager back in the dot com boom because the industry exploded and there weren't enough people with experience to go around. The ridiculous salaries caused a huge flood of people to get into computers, and now he can't even seem to find a job that he wants. Does anyone want to go into computers now? Not really...at least it's nowhere near as attractive as it was a decade ago. The supply-demand relationship balanced out at about $100K for what he does, and he doesn't go on strike about it.

 

I'm not saying teachers are overworked, overpaid or otherwise - I'm saying that people earn what they are worth until a union gets involved.

[cram]

The same way that millions of other wages are determined. Pay whatever it takes to get enough qualified teachers. If salaries were too high you would have more teachers than jobs, and if they were too low there wouldn't be enough teachers to go around.

 

I know someone that was making $150K as a IT project manager back in the dot com boom because the industry exploded and there weren't enough people with experience to go around. The ridiculous salaries caused a huge flood of people to get into computers, and now he can't even seem to find a job that he wants. Does anyone want to go into computers now? Not really...at least it's nowhere near as attractive as it was a decade ago. The supply-demand relationship balanced out at about $100K for what he does, and he doesn't go on strike about it.

 

I'm not saying teachers are overworked, overpaid or otherwise - I'm saying that people earn what they are worth until a union gets involved.

 

So accomodate the lowest common denominator. I would prefer a free market, but the free market means you get to negotiate your own contract. So, if you're a good/great teacher you get to earn more than the average. It would be an interesting situation.

 

btw - I can tell you from first hand experience that the tech market the past 3 years has been as good or better (for the IT guys) than the dot-com boom you're referring to. If you remove the Y2K contracts the market is actually bigger than it was back then.

[Headhunter]

Cram, my wife and I have been putting serious thought into putting our kids into private school. There are a number of reasons for this, but unfortunately, financially, right now, it would be financial suicide for us.

 

RE: the tech market... well I have some personal experience in that market

Let me just say that salaries and hourly rates have dropped in I.T., but really only in the last 6 months or so. That market is really all about riding the next technilogical wave and being at the crest of that wave, at the right time.

The folks I know in the industry are folks who stay ahead of the game by staying educated and current. I know people making $100/hr and I know people making $15/hr. They are worth every penny a company will pay them or they wouldn't get it!

HH

[snookey318]

If teachers are such morons and you do value your kids education you should pull them out of the public system and put them in private or homeschool.

 

btw -- 90k is for maximum tenure and maximum upgrading (taking courses through thsummer etc). The average is 71. I bet most teachers in their 30's are making 60-70k, after 4 years of university and 1 yr of teachers college.

 

We just gave $4B to the auto industry to pay guys who are making 140k for standing on a line (i have lots of friends in teh auto industry, and even they say they're overpaid), yet everyone's belly-aching over 700mm (1/6th what we paid the autoworkers), most of which IS BEING APPLIED TO STUDENT FUNDING, NOT TEACHERS.

 

These are your kids, and your neighbours kids, and your brother/sister's kids. You probably spent more on beer last year than you did on school tax.

 

I never said teachers were morons. I am saying that they are overpaid for the work they perform because of their unions stanglehold on our citizens and government.

 

You keep on mentioning averages. The fact is that with any unionized government job you will be making the MAXIMUM allowable after working for awhile. If you screw up in your job, dont matter. Increase is coming. The issue with paying teachers so much is that it comes out of our paycheck in the form of taxes. Something is wrong when the average home in TO is paying over $4000 a year in taxes. Not everyone is "entitled" to the yearly increases and feels the affects of a high tax burden.

 

Yes my kids education is important but they can recieve the quality instruction they need if teachers were paid less. To be honest, I dont recall being impressed by many teachers from primary school to university. They regurgitate material from a book and right it on the board.

Great way to stimulate young minds.

 

Yes there are some good teachers but many bad ones as well who go into it for the summer vacation,big bucks, and lack of accountability.

[capt bruce]

Think it over HEADHUNTER , all three of my children went to private schools , two in canada one in England. I had no problem with the public schools here IT WAS THE PARENTS of the poor children that my children would be in contact with . Not to say private school parents are all saints BUTTTTT i wouldnt trade places with your wife for all the money in the world , I bet she can tell you stories of the parents from hell, I stopped going to watch my sons hockey games for the same reasons , some parents are just CRAZY I feel for their children .

[Headhunter]

Well, let's see here:

4 years of university

1 year of teacher's college (cut and paste 101)

multiple advanced courses to become a principle

And now uniquely qualified to check the entire school population for lice!

I hear yah Capt. Bruce! I couldn't do that job either!

HH

Edited February 13, 2009 by Headhunter

[cram]

I never said teachers were morons. I am saying that they are overpaid for the work they perform because of their unions stanglehold on our citizens and government.

 

You keep on mentioning averages. The fact is that with any unionized government job you will be making the MAXIMUM allowable after working for awhile. If you screw up in your job, dont matter. Increase is coming. The issue with paying teachers so much is that it comes out of our paycheck in the form of taxes. Something is wrong when the average home in TO is paying over $4000 a year in taxes. Not everyone is "entitled" to the yearly increases and feels the affects of a high tax burden.

 

Yes my kids education is important but they can recieve the quality instruction they need if teachers were paid less. To be honest, I dont recall being impressed by many teachers from primary school to university. They regurgitate material from a book and right it on the board.

Great way to stimulate young minds.

 

Yes there are some good teachers but many bad ones as well who go into it for the summer vacation,big bucks, and lack of accountability.

 

Yep, you pretty much did. And the average is 71k.

[fishermccann]

Sorry but I also think that if you are not getting paid why should you stay. The administration holds you to the letter of the contract, (eg. break times) , it works both ways. This is not the times of Dickins Let us never go back to that - who has the jobs makes the rules.

[Cudz]

"Those who can do, and those who cannot teach" very truthfull saying in my book. Unfortunately the Ontario taxpayer is being held hostage by one

Wow. Haven't heard that before.

I have had jobs in the 'real world' (lol) and done just fine. Many teachers can and have worked in your real world.

Over the years I have had many jobs before teaching and whilst being a teacher as well.

Here is a list of my 'real world' job all of which I was very successful at.

 

factory line work assembling pumps

Coca Cola truck driving delivery

Regional sales rep for 2 different UK reps

Sports Store manager

Wing Environmental Officer for the 17th wing in Winnipeg Manitoba

Fitness instructor

and Pizza delivery boy.

 

That saying 'Those who can do, and those who cannot teach' is just that, a saying. It is catchy and people love to use it. I have in the past been offered jobs that pay more than teaching does but I have turned 2 of them down in the past 7 years. I, along with many other teachers, would do just fine in your real world. I like teaching. I like the kids. It keeps me young and in the know. I like the fact that I can enpower a generation and help to them to participate in society effectively. I try to teach them life-lessons, morals and values as well as the curriculum. Not all are successful but the vast majority are. I believe that I am a role model and I believe I do a good job. The job, like any other, has its ups and downs but the positives far outweigh the negatives. I am not ashamed of being a teacher. I am proud of it. Believe it or not, not everyone can be a teacher. Some of you naysayers think it is just the easiest job in the world. I will tell you this; there are some people in 'your real world' who wouldn't last a semester in my 'fake world (I guess that is what it must be??)' Just makes me laugh.

 

Oh yeah. I do teach because I love it. I get paid well but I don't really care about that. My wife and I in the years coming up to 2003 were financial very stable. My wife decided to stay at home with the kids for the past 5 years. I am not a top level earning teacher and I have 3 children. I get paid well but not crazy amounts of money. If I wanted more money I would quit being a teacher and find another job. I am confident I could do that but I live a comfortable life without much luxury (have you seen my boat? I share it with a friend and got it and everything in it for free).

 

I do admit a good chunk of your taxes go to education. I don't believe teachers should ever strike or complain about their wages. I think if you talk to teachers you will find that there are very very few who think they are underpaid. Would I take a pay cut in times like these; YES I would.

For those of you who don't like the way teacher's teach, here is what you can do.

 

1. go to university and get a degree

2. go to university for a 5th year after being at the top or near the top of your undergrad class (this is called teacher's college and only high achieversr make it in)

3. Get on a school board list and supply teach for at least 2 years or so and do a few LTOs along the way.

4. get a contract to work (You will probably only start with a 1/6 contract and work your way up from there to 6/6 or full contract which often take 2 plus years)

5. Once you have a contract, do all kinds of university courses in order to become a high level teacher (each course costs $800 and I have taken 6 so far and am not at top level). By this point you still might be making $45K.

 

so it really isn't that difficult. Any takers? Should only cost you about $70-80K to become a teacher.

[Bernie]

so it really isn't that difficult. Any takers? Should only cost you about $70-80K to become a teacher.

There are many people out there that pay their dues. I have that much money tied up in tools alone in my toolbox.

Five years as an apprentice, three in school, and keeping up with the ever changing technology in automotive by attending seminars and courses on a constant basis.

Imagine if all the mechanics went on strike. Talk about shutting down a whole country. How much are we worth now?

[cram]

There are many people out there that pay their dues. I have that much money tied up in tools alone in my toolbox.

Five years as an apprentice, three in school, and keeping up with the ever changing technology in automotive by attending seminars and courses on a constant basis.

Imagine if all the mechanics went on strike. Talk about shutting down a whole country. How much are we worth now?

 

Don't mechanics make way more than teachers? What's your point?

[rickster]

Don't mechanics make way more than teachers? What's your point?

 

 

MOST DON'T NO

[Bernie]

Don't mechanics make way more than teachers? What's your point?

They do? Ha, wish I did.

[Cookslav]

The whole Idea rubbed me wrong from the start.

Not happy with the job???

Then Leave, and go somewhere that fits your wants and needs.

Strikes are ridiculous IMO

 

Teachers got it good...sorry but its 100% true

Not saying its easy by any means, and I'm not saying it was not earned but lets review the facts.

 

Great pay consistently over the national average

Great job security

Weekends off, and reasonable hours

Great...and I mean GREAT Pension plan and benefits

and more time off then pretty much any industry I can think of.

 

It ain't easy I'm sure (lots of opinions out there on that)

but its better then many, or most have it right now, and that's why there was so little public support for this "near" strike.

The whole idea was not in touch with today's reality, or Public empathy.

 

If they were not happy that Highschool teachers get more perks...then go teach in highschool?

Gosh it seems odd that a dullard like me should half to point out such a simplistic & reasonable solution to the elite minds of our educational system LOL!

Edited February 14, 2009 by Cookslav