Snidley

I had a smokin', drinkin', gamblin' father in law, a great guy, who told me that leaping to conclusions was the only exercise he got . The booze and cigs got him unfortunately and he died at 55, of throat cancer (but not before I made some money with him on NFL games).

I use Bass crankbaits and jerkbaits exclusively for steelhead in streams, never do I resort to bait. Sometimes I use #3 and #4 spinners too. Works better and is actually fun and I have never had a warden say it's not allowed, because it is allowed and is certainly more ethical than roe as well. I think buddy was playing with you as it is commonplace for bait anglers to consider anything other that finesse bait tactics to be either snagging or attempt to catch OOS fish. What you should do is smile and carry on (and not take the bait lol)

Caldonia by the Dam (but not too close). Upstream of Caldonia there's a variety of good spots. York is not a regular stopping place for the trout as they move through.

Great fishery for sure, due to the efforts of the clubs that are stocking. It is not a wild steelhead fishery since this is a video of stocking, well upstream to imprint the fish to the Saugeen watershed, and with eggs derived from wild caught fish. In other words an excellent example to follow all around the province and one that has created a fishery some say might be as high as 30K returning fish from a low of about 700 fish not that long ago. Unfortunately this model is not the one being followed in most places around Ontario, if it was we would be enjoying large numbers of trout and salmon in most of our rivers not just a few.

The final contract may not be signed yet but we do have hundreds of millions already spent on this turkey and like most people our goof balls in Ottawa will chase bad money with good money. These are the kinds of things that will ultimately relegate the western world to the scrap heap.

Another interesting story revolves around the newer jets like F18 when they were commissioned. At navy "Top Gun" school instructors regularly defeated top navy pilots in F18's flying old, cheap F5 Freedom Fighters, an "out dated" air force jet that represented bogies. The upshot of the story was that quality pilots mattered and for the money, you could have a 10 to 1 numerical superiority with older technology. Not the greatest for your pilots however since I believe the US Airforce has not lost a F15-16-18 in an air battle since their introduction. For Canada though the whole exercise is a stupid waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere or even better, left in the hands of Canadian taxpayers. It is essentially the same point as the building of new jails to house pot smokers..

I heard last year was pretty good.

There's lots of better options. That plane is an over the top piece of equipment to fight/dominate well... nobody. Better to have less expensive proven aircraft more suited to long range patrol over vast distances. Like drones, with excellent radar and optics at 20th of the cost financially and none of the cost personnel wise. By the way I'm told the reason for all the delays and cost over runs for the F35 is that the Chinese have hacked the software and can now drop those puppies out of the air with a keystroke. I don't know if it's true but I do know that cyber war is the big equalizer in the eyes of the US military. Drones fit that equalizer bill as well. Skeptics should read up on the HMS Dreadnought to understand this military phenomenon because the US is hell bent on losing world financial domination and all they really have left is their military supremacy .

A buddy of mine is going and he has 2 tables with a ton of high end Japanese lures like Lucky Craft, Jackal, OSP etc as well as some mint G Loomis Steelhead rods. I'm going and hope someone is bringing some vintage Balsa crankbaits like Bagleys or some customs.

U-B-Fishing eggs were always good from a boat but other plastic eggs work well too. They hold on the hook better than natural eggs. If the water is clear the trout usually hold on the second ledge and beyond out from the shoreline. One guy used to drift spinners instead of eggs and flies. Never tried it but from shore spinners, spoons, crankbaits and jigs, both bucktail and plastic, work well. A New York State license is pretty much a must as well since, from a boat,there are more drifts on the New York state side.

That should be a great information session. All parties at one location, hopefully with co-originated info. I remember the days when I would launch at Queenston cross the river to the American side, tie up at the dock stateside and walk up the street to the baitshop for some fatheads. Never bothered to use the phone on the dock either.That probably would get you a quick visit to, and very slow exit from, the crowbar hotel today.

Currently the cost of keeping a federal inmate locked up for one year is $120K. The fiscal side of it alone should be enough to bring sanity to our drug laws let alone the ruination of peoples lives for a herb. The issues of turning our country into a lockup is fed by the same crowd that claims crime is up. Crime is down, massively so and it's violent crime that is down the most. What the authorities need to do is emphasize white collar crime where enforcement is lax often due to an inability of our police to comprehend the crimes and how they are perpetrated. Bringing it back to the science topic I consider deliberately and knowingly poisoning a major fishery a crime. Further, cover ups that obfuscate the condition of foodstuffs sold to international trading partners is a deliberate and large scale fraud. Our cops should be investigating but my bet is they would not know where to start. Having the Feds intimidate and muzzle the scientists most in the know about the actual goings on in our salmon fisheries is obstruction of justice. In a functioning democracy the cops would be on this case independently but I guess that's too much to ask when an ex PM can accept $100 K in cash, twice, for influence peddling without it being a crime. Or a finance minister can sell a steamship line for over $300 Million and still claim a tax return that shows a government salary as his only income. Or a whole government that sets up an inquiry that from the outset gives every government member immunity, appoints lawyers out the ying yang and results in a boondoggle of little impact that costs more than the actual scandal itself. Or an unqualified consultant who hooks up with the Defense Dept, waltzes with over $100 Million, gets caught, gets sentenced to 2 years less a day, gets out and no one requires that he produce the stolen money before he walks. I've said it before...we are doomed.

My point exactly. I said I'm glad we don't permit that type of weapon in the hands of civilians in Canada. My further point was that Chiefs of Police were and are interested in the safety of their men. They are on the front lines of the thing and the peanut gallery is interested in having a gun collection unbeknownst the police. Like there's going to be a revolution /invasion and guys are going to hold out with their hunting gear. I also admit that the implementation was amateurish and a laughable exercise by incompetents and, as is often the case, a valid idea was done in by the implementation. The devil really is in the details.

The cops live in a world of aberrant behavior usually fueled by booze. As I said domestic calls are very scarey and under the duress of a painful domestic situation lubricated by alcohol "law abiding" citizens can and do go ape. Same goes for individuals that feel bullied, alienated etc.There's remorse afterward but by then the damage is done. The damage is mitigated if the perp does not have automatic or mega clip weaponry at their disposal. America is the test case that exemplifies this fact virtually every day

The Saugeen gets occasional pressure, the Credit, like all GTA tribs gets constant pressure and there have been very few anglers on the Saugeen this year, especially during the week while the Credit has been very busy this March. The streams themselves are much smaller and therefore easier tribs to fish in the GTA as well. Some of the eastern tribs are literally drainage ditches. The Saugeen is not getting a "kick-start" from stocking it gets persistent stocking, heavy by Ontario standards, year after year, after year. They wisely stock from healthy wild fish just like New York State. New York State does stock domestic rainbows but not in the rivers, they stock domestics in lakes and ponds in a real put and take fishery. The Saugeen is not managed the same way as the Credit and I think most of the guys managing the Saugeen would be insulted to be lumped with the management team of the Credit. They are not the same at all. I will admit that the Saugeen has advantages over the Credit. It has a larger watershed, with better spawning water than the Credit(and there is good natural reproduction). It's a big river with much less pressure (Dennys dam excepted) than the Credit/GTA tribs and the management of the river is in the hands of a committed knowledgeable crew of mainly old geezers that are stocking, stocking stocking. Persistently. They lift the fish effectively as well and to my knowledge they have never resorted to fishing in sanctuaries for any reason. I will also admit that if money was no object, stream enhancement would be desirable on all GTA tribs, but money is not unlimited AND there are other rivers in the GTA that deserve attention besides the Credit. Stocking, using eggs freshly taken from wild fish, is a much more cost effective method of enhancing the returns in all GTA tribs not just the Credit. Selective pen rearing in addition to upstream release would be smart implementation . Avoiding boondoggles like the Atlantic program would be prudent as well. Just imagine how much quality stocking could have been done over the last 5 years if the Atlantic stocking money had gone instead to stocking bows, Chinnooks and Cohos. I appreciate that the Aussie winery probably would not have put money towards "invasive species like Salmon and rainbows" but good faith partners would have made the attempt to set them straight as to what was feesable and what was not. The MNR, OFAH and CRAA did not do so for reasons known only to them but everyone will be able to witness the absolute bust that is the Atlantic program observed over the next few seasons now that the winey cash is done. In fishery terms it will be like the Splake program and in government terms it will be like ORNG and E- health. Either way it will be a bust of enormous proportions and that's why CRAA is backtracking.

Dare I say the word stocking. Persistent stocking (and transporting the fish over the dam too of course). I might also add that very few anglers (none actually) that I know of consider Saugeen steelhead in any way weak. It could happen here (GTA) too.

I have to agree with Torco I don't see much if any liberal bias at CBC. Occasionally Arliene Dickenson does some less than financially prudent investing based on touchy feely input, but, she turns a buck with it as well. Any reporting I have seen has always just shared basically the same facts the other media outlets reported. Sun TV might be somewhat biased but they are clearly not reporters, they are pundits, which is a much different thing. I don't think the Sun personalities even attempt to call what they do reporting. As far as chiefs of police are concerned, they have good reason to address what they feel is an ongoing threat to their cops in not knowing if a household has firearms or not. Bottom line is that domestic disputes are highly unpredictable and are situations where cool heads are not prevailing. It is valuable to know if there is any sort of firearm available to a potential perp especially in those domestic situations. Unfortunately the Liberals made a complete botch of the whole thing but I certainly hope Canada never gets to the point of the USA where civilians can stockpile virtually any arsenal they want up to and including 50 cal sniper cannons and mega clip semi auto anti personnel weapons.

Funny thing is fishing for millions of salmon either commercially or running operations for recreational fisherman constitutes business too. Sustainable business, utilizing the definitive sustainable resource , massive salmon runs. I know it's happening I just can't fathom why our government's would pick a foreign agribusiness with a sketchy past, poor profitability and a minute employment base over a traditionally lucrative business run by some of Canada's wealthiest businessmen. Why would these businesses allow this to happen. I really don't get it.

The sad truth is that Liberals are equally culpable, they are in charge in BC and could do something about the leases on the water where the pens are situated plus this virus/ leukemia situation has been around on the east coast for a long time even back to when the Libs were running things Federally. Like most things that are important, and the Sockeye run involved here can run into the millions of fish so it's important, leaving it up to the government is a mistake. Unfortunately the Feds do have management jurisdiction over Salmon, the province of BC has jurisdiction over the waters were these pens are situated and neither of them are prepared to take on a foreign company that is poisoning the wild stocks of Sockeye, Coho and Chinnook salmon all so BC can ship farmed mutant salmon into a market that is already saturated with farmed salmon from elsewhere. It's the kind of governmental business decision only some lawyers that have managed to get themselves elected could make. The whole thing is stupid, will be exposed to the complete embarrassment to all involved, and could conceivably ruin huge sections of the BC salmon run with dire consequences for Orcas, seals and oh ya fisherman both commercial and recreational. It appears that fisherman are already being effected with the announcement of large scale retention cuts. Undoubtedly the Orcas and seals are being effected too, but they don't have a voice. So as far as politics are involved there are no good guys just dicks that are drunk with power but will sellout for a few bucks. In other words situation normal. I don't know what the public can really do other than refrain from buying farmed salmon and pressuring grocery retail stores to stop selling tainted farmed fish. It sounds lame but if anyone is following the story of "pink slime" in the US it seems consumers do in fact hold a trump card when addressing an issue like this. Publicity is key of course, so I guess it comes full circle back to an aggressive and respected press/tv media. Clearly the CBC is not that trusted source and it seems the whole issue has not been addressed by other media. Basically it's just one more stinking mess that will crawl under the radar until it becomes a full blown disaster. :wallbash:

I strongly suggest that guys here read Alex Morton's blog from start to finish. This issue includes strong arm methods, literally, to silence a government scientist, misuse of Canadian courts to silence and deport a critic, deliberate lies to long time trading partners to benefit of a non Canadian corporation with a long history of corruption and dirty dealing, and the outcome has the potential to ruin one of the worlds largest and best sources of natural protein. The whole thing trumps an oath to a disingenuous partner, a partner that had no intention of honorable dealing from the get go. It has been going on for a long time and the Liberals are involved as well. In truth I'm personally a little right of Attilla the Hun but this scandal transcends political parties. It is simply crime for money which maybe makes it, in fact, politics at it's very heart.

That entire scene is a mess. I have been following Alexandra Morton's blog all along and it is an eye opener. It began by letting a foreign commercial interest farm Atlantic Salmon in the Pacific in the middle of one of the Earth's largest sources of quality protein, the Fraser Sockeye run. The involvement of the Privy Council, which is essentially the PM, in this case shows political meddling plain and simple to shield a group of unscrupulous scoundrels use a Canadian base of operations to poison Canadian waters and ship tainted food to our trading partners. Officially gagging the Federal scientists that could have shed light on the issue is a scary perversion of democracy that reminds me of the worst aspects of the democracy to the south of us. All this will seem like small potatoes when our international customers evaluate what we have been selling them as premium product. The poop will really hit the fan at the WTO when it comes to light internationally that a "Canadian" (but really Norwegian)agribusiness knowingly shipped disease contaminated products overseas to good faith trading partners. It just goes to show how perverted the business/government relationship has become.

You must also factor in economic return when evaluating resource exploitation and I'm betting it would be hard to find sound economic reasons for allowing commercial netting operations on Lake Erie other than for a crazy quilt of heritage, ethnic or historical reasons. More economic activity comes from recreational exploitation of just about every natural resource than comes from sending harvesters out to catch something only to sell it into a cutthroat wholesale distribution system. Maybe at the end of the day a few restaurants make out ok selling fish and chips based on perch but the towns on the Erie coast would do better with hordes of recreational anglers coming out to try their luck, while keeping within reasonable limits, in an abundant perch resource.

That's a lot of fish in one pass. I suppose the fishermen need to make a living but overall I bet the economics of the whole thing would be much better if that resource was based on recreational angling VS commercial fishing. Overall I believe that both Zebra and Quagga mussels have enhanced Smallmouth Bass and Steelhead stocks in Lake Erie and dramatically reduced Walleye stocks in Erie at the same time. There are still lots of Walleye in Erie but not like when the lake was the murky, algae filled swamp it used to be. Not many Walleye anglers would dispute that the mussels as well as the reduction of phosphates in the environment have reduced the Walleye fishery there. An interesting sidebar to this issue is offered by Lake Winnipeg where there are no mussels but there are massively higher nutrient loads that are creating huge algae blooms that can be observed from space. Not only are there more walleyes than ever before in that lake but they are bigger than ever too. Trouble is some of those new algae blooms, mostly the ones found in shallow water, are toxic to mammals so pets and kids are at risk. It seems that nature always offers tradeoffs never a one way loss or victory

Natural Lake O fish and stocked Lake O fish have virtually zero difference in fighting qualities. Fish energy levels/fighting characteristics are governeed by several factors. Temperature is one issue. Anyone who has fished the Niagara, where both natural and stocked fish are present, will understand that in April, May and June any steelhead you hook up with will rip exceptionally hard. In January, through March much less so. Same in Lake Erie. Virtually everyone from Ontario fishes the Catt in the middle of winter, in low flow (the Catt is virtually only fishable in low flow). Size of the fish is also a factor. Erie fish are smaller in general but if anglers went out into the western Erie basin in the summertime and hooked up with these same smaller fish they would find they fight with great ferocity, for their size. Water flow is also a factor. Our Ontario tribs, especially the Credit, are fishable when there's lots of flow and flow is like wind at the back for the fish. Wind at the back of natural fish or stockers is going to present the impression of a strong fight. In the blue zone in the middle of summer there's a mixture of natural and stocked steelhead. To my mind they all fight exceptionally well and thanks to New York State and their aggressive stocking tactics there are lots of them to catch. Temperature, water flow, gear dynamics, year class distribution and strain genetics are the factors that govern the fighting qualities/energy levels of steelhead not whether they are stockers or natural. Cognitive dissonance, on the other hand, is the main determining factor in the entire argument surrounding this issue coming from the CRAA membership (an organization of which Joseph, Mike, Louis and possibly others in this post are members of).

I have held my opinion on roe/ stocking for a long time but the '80's might be a stretch since I lived in BC for most of that decade. Certainly lots of people in BC held that opinion in the '80's, so much so that not only is roe and some cases even scent banned now but killing Steelheads is not permitted. In fact all samonoids are highly protected in BC where ANNUAL limits of even stocked salmonoids is enforced with tags that must be filled out on retaining any salmon. User pays is enforced by making sure that salmon/steelhead anglers must buy the tag or tags just to fish for these beauties. This is how sophisticated enforcement and management is paid for. My opinion on roe is now officially held in all of Canada except for Ontario. Some US states also now hold the same opinion on roe and US states virtually ALL have strong stocking programs for ALL of their gamefish. In addition New York state is winning the overall competition with pen rearing/ superior imprinting drawing not only their own migratory fish back to their estuaries for their anglers but drawing away fish from Ontario, Pennsylvania and Ohio as well. Ohio and Pennsylvania are not really suffering badly and they still have tons of fish because their stocking programs are so successful that they have what can only be described as an overabundance of trout to begin with. Ontario, not so much. We do have great tree lines in Ontario though. Thanks CRAA. I also remember lots of fish here, and not that long ago, all supported by stocking. I wonder what happened to them? Could it be that some guys married to a primitive tradition killed most them because they couldn't figure out a way to catch their "numbers" without using the future of the fishery for bait all the while throwing their support behind a government ministry and conservation club that opted for tree planting rather than more aggressive measures? And any bonus option for pelagic enhancement... lets spend that $$ on a "native" fish that were here 150 years ago. A fish that would have to be stocked AND is about the is single most expensive fish possible to stock successfully. All brought to you by your friends at MNR,OFAH, CRAA and an Aussie winery. So we are now stocking...a fish that is the most expensive possible to stock successfully and with the least possible chance of success...unless you spend most of your money to do so...with continual stocking. Someone wrote a book about these kinds of situations, Catch 22 I believe it was called. Could it also be that these same guys are falling all over themselves over one run, on one river, in one year? A year with the warmest March on record that has created a push just when the anglers happen to be on stream. We shall see how this plays out over the next few years. The MNR has decided that mainly based on the "success" of the Atlantic program and the "sustainable" philosophy espoused by CRAA and their accolytes to open a larger single egg rearing hatchery that will house the sainted Atlantic, some steelhead and Chinnook salmon all in one facility. Essentially this is all eggs/one basket approach. This approach is also contrary to the way things are done on the west coast and in the US where multiple facilities hedging the risk of disease is considered prudent. I hope it does not happen but single large facilities housing the vast majority of your already minimal stocking options seems to me to be risky, but only if you believe that aggressive human intervention into a fishery that is mainly centered in an urban setting of 4 million people is a requirement. Hope I'm wrong but given "sustainability" as the over riding philosophy of your approach then not restricting bait options in one single case, spawn, seems to me to be ridiculous. If you decide you are married to fishing with eggs, and Ontario's authorities and most Ontario anglers are, then it seems to me that aggressive stocking tactics are required. Personally I suggest both sustainable practices including no roe but allowing other organics, no harvest at all in GTA or any other vulnerable watersheds combined with aggressive stocking (of optimal strain freshly harvested from wild fish not brood stock) would be best and would create a fishery like the US or Argentina, or BC. and would also insure the overall fishery from dramatic or even catastrophic downturns that need not exist but under current management are the norm.