Snidley

That's a lot of fish in one pass. I suppose the fishermen need to make a living but overall I bet the economics of the whole thing would be much better if that resource was based on recreational angling VS commercial fishing. Overall I believe that both Zebra and Quagga mussels have enhanced Smallmouth Bass and Steelhead stocks in Lake Erie and dramatically reduced Walleye stocks in Erie at the same time. There are still lots of Walleye in Erie but not like when the lake was the murky, algae filled swamp it used to be. Not many Walleye anglers would dispute that the mussels as well as the reduction of phosphates in the environment have reduced the Walleye fishery there. An interesting sidebar to this issue is offered by Lake Winnipeg where there are no mussels but there are massively higher nutrient loads that are creating huge algae blooms that can be observed from space. Not only are there more walleyes than ever before in that lake but they are bigger than ever too. Trouble is some of those new algae blooms, mostly the ones found in shallow water, are toxic to mammals so pets and kids are at risk. It seems that nature always offers tradeoffs never a one way loss or victory

Natural Lake O fish and stocked Lake O fish have virtually zero difference in fighting qualities. Fish energy levels/fighting characteristics are governeed by several factors. Temperature is one issue. Anyone who has fished the Niagara, where both natural and stocked fish are present, will understand that in April, May and June any steelhead you hook up with will rip exceptionally hard. In January, through March much less so. Same in Lake Erie. Virtually everyone from Ontario fishes the Catt in the middle of winter, in low flow (the Catt is virtually only fishable in low flow). Size of the fish is also a factor. Erie fish are smaller in general but if anglers went out into the western Erie basin in the summertime and hooked up with these same smaller fish they would find they fight with great ferocity, for their size. Water flow is also a factor. Our Ontario tribs, especially the Credit, are fishable when there's lots of flow and flow is like wind at the back for the fish. Wind at the back of natural fish or stockers is going to present the impression of a strong fight. In the blue zone in the middle of summer there's a mixture of natural and stocked steelhead. To my mind they all fight exceptionally well and thanks to New York State and their aggressive stocking tactics there are lots of them to catch. Temperature, water flow, gear dynamics, year class distribution and strain genetics are the factors that govern the fighting qualities/energy levels of steelhead not whether they are stockers or natural. Cognitive dissonance, on the other hand, is the main determining factor in the entire argument surrounding this issue coming from the CRAA membership (an organization of which Joseph, Mike, Louis and possibly others in this post are members of).

I have held my opinion on roe/ stocking for a long time but the '80's might be a stretch since I lived in BC for most of that decade. Certainly lots of people in BC held that opinion in the '80's, so much so that not only is roe and some cases even scent banned now but killing Steelheads is not permitted. In fact all samonoids are highly protected in BC where ANNUAL limits of even stocked salmonoids is enforced with tags that must be filled out on retaining any salmon. User pays is enforced by making sure that salmon/steelhead anglers must buy the tag or tags just to fish for these beauties. This is how sophisticated enforcement and management is paid for. My opinion on roe is now officially held in all of Canada except for Ontario. Some US states also now hold the same opinion on roe and US states virtually ALL have strong stocking programs for ALL of their gamefish. In addition New York state is winning the overall competition with pen rearing/ superior imprinting drawing not only their own migratory fish back to their estuaries for their anglers but drawing away fish from Ontario, Pennsylvania and Ohio as well. Ohio and Pennsylvania are not really suffering badly and they still have tons of fish because their stocking programs are so successful that they have what can only be described as an overabundance of trout to begin with. Ontario, not so much. We do have great tree lines in Ontario though. Thanks CRAA. I also remember lots of fish here, and not that long ago, all supported by stocking. I wonder what happened to them? Could it be that some guys married to a primitive tradition killed most them because they couldn't figure out a way to catch their "numbers" without using the future of the fishery for bait all the while throwing their support behind a government ministry and conservation club that opted for tree planting rather than more aggressive measures? And any bonus option for pelagic enhancement... lets spend that $$ on a "native" fish that were here 150 years ago. A fish that would have to be stocked AND is about the is single most expensive fish possible to stock successfully. All brought to you by your friends at MNR,OFAH, CRAA and an Aussie winery. So we are now stocking...a fish that is the most expensive possible to stock successfully and with the least possible chance of success...unless you spend most of your money to do so...with continual stocking. Someone wrote a book about these kinds of situations, Catch 22 I believe it was called. Could it also be that these same guys are falling all over themselves over one run, on one river, in one year? A year with the warmest March on record that has created a push just when the anglers happen to be on stream. We shall see how this plays out over the next few years. The MNR has decided that mainly based on the "success" of the Atlantic program and the "sustainable" philosophy espoused by CRAA and their accolytes to open a larger single egg rearing hatchery that will house the sainted Atlantic, some steelhead and Chinnook salmon all in one facility. Essentially this is all eggs/one basket approach. This approach is also contrary to the way things are done on the west coast and in the US where multiple facilities hedging the risk of disease is considered prudent. I hope it does not happen but single large facilities housing the vast majority of your already minimal stocking options seems to me to be risky, but only if you believe that aggressive human intervention into a fishery that is mainly centered in an urban setting of 4 million people is a requirement. Hope I'm wrong but given "sustainability" as the over riding philosophy of your approach then not restricting bait options in one single case, spawn, seems to me to be ridiculous. If you decide you are married to fishing with eggs, and Ontario's authorities and most Ontario anglers are, then it seems to me that aggressive stocking tactics are required. Personally I suggest both sustainable practices including no roe but allowing other organics, no harvest at all in GTA or any other vulnerable watersheds combined with aggressive stocking (of optimal strain freshly harvested from wild fish not brood stock) would be best and would create a fishery like the US or Argentina, or BC. and would also insure the overall fishery from dramatic or even catastrophic downturns that need not exist but under current management are the norm.

Louis I get it too. The only thing I don't eat is cows and pigs out of concern for my personal health. You on the other hand eat everything, way too much of everything I believe. By the way Louis by the sound of your earlier post it looks like you and CRAA are preparing the ground for some backtracking on Atlantics. Oh well it wasn't your money. By the way if guys feel the need for it and they don't mind the mess worms, grubs, minnows, cut bait are all a-ok by me. Just not spawn since I would like to see all this conservation work pay off before the egg collectors determine that one early run means local tribs are ship shape and 2 a trip hens becomes SOP.

It was supposed to be 2 in the lake as well then at the very last minute it was changed to the current compromise of 2 in the river and 5 in the lake. Wonder if the "Derby" or OFAH or both had anything to do with it? But before stream anglers get cocky one of the other curiosities of our current regulations is that by Federal statute roe retained is in fact the same as fish retained. It's part of the fish after all, no different really than fins or fillets, and Federal law says it's all part of your limit. This came to me in an email from the head of enforcement from the MNR BUT when push comes to shove it is NEVER enforced. The reasons are twofold. One, it's a Federal Statute and the province chooses not to enforce it for the Feds, in Ontario. I suspect in other jurisdictions it's different but then roe fishing is not permitted elsewhere in Canada. The second reason conveniently dovetails with the compromise (or should that be compromising?) for fish retention as it sits in Ontario. The MNR feels it would be impossible (unwilling?)to prove whether the roe came from Ontario streams, 2 fish limit, or from the Ontario side of the lake, 5 fish limit, or from the local baitshop, or grocery store, or US streams, or US lake (the flyboys in NY, Penn., Ohio love it when Ontatio anglers come down on brown egg runs don't they). Like many things you should be carefull what you wish for since it might come back to bite you in the butt. Not that Ontario anglers need worry that a roe ban is on any sort of horizon around here. Virtually everyone is married to it and even when the MNR knows that over harvest for bait is rife particularly in the GTA they choose to bury the study rather than face the wrath of the angler community.

I love when bait anglers talk about retention. When they kill fish for roe or meat it's a harvest, when anyone outside their circle kills a fish its' a slaughter. When that drippy Brown trout makes the bad decision to get caught on your hook what is it boys, conservation minded harvest or slaughter? Trollers are just as bad especially with Salmon for "the DERBY". To them stream guys are snaggers wasting the fish for bait while the trollers purpose is noble, ie to get some cash and notoriety among their peers. Then chuck the carcass, or worse, feed it to some rubes that will eat it on the say so of "expert" fishermen that it's safe if you cut off the belly. Then there are the hoards that weigh in 15-25lb fish when the leader board was 32lb before they even left harbour that morning. I even remember seeing some "Pro" angler with a TV show suggest since Chinnooks are toxic that a great use for them would be to feed the carcasses to the bears at the zoo. Now that's conservation minded I suppose on a cosmic basis it's funny and will amount to nothing in the long run but it sure is irritating in the mean time.

Waders are a tricky subject. Simms and Patagonia make the best breathable waders for sure. They are heavy though and it's due to multiple real Gortex layers. I would be suspicious of cheap Simms because they will be imports for $200 and are likely to be similar to Cabelas and BPS house brands. Simms does offer a warranty but they must be shipped back to the USA for repair and it's not free. They are other quality imports like Bare. I saw the waders you are looking at from LeBarons and they looked very nice but they are $275. For me fishing from a kickboat the knees go in all of the cheaper waders but the Simms are too heavy in the summer heat so that defeats the purpose of comfortable dry fishing. I have had multiple White River waders and they are cheap waders that last about 3 months in my boat. I then get them replaced under warranty but you will only get one replacement per purchase from BPS in my experience. I get them for about $79-$99 on sale and look at it as a disposable product like most clothing you wear a lot. This year I saw that Cabelas.ca had the Cabelas Dry Plus breathables for $99 CDN so I bought them because of the price$99 /shipping @ $12. It seems like a good deal and I would say they are a step up 1 grade from the White Rivers from BPS. They are light, which is good for comfort but probably bad for durability so I expect that I will be replacing them under warranty mid year. I think if I was only wading streams I would be tempted to shop those Bares as they seem to be durable and you might get some long time use out of them (I probably wouldn't). Check the Bare warranty out thoroughly as Bares were my first breathables about 15 years ago and they let me down on warranty claim (2 warranty claims actually). Quality back then for their breathables was pathetic (good neoprenes however) but with the exception of Simms all the breathables at that time were a joke.

There's tons of stocking on Lake Huron and Georgian Bay. What do you think the clubs are doing with the Derby $$$. Trout are notorious wanderers in case you did not know and stocked fish repopulate all over the system including into and out of America. In addition there's been a reduced bag limit on Georgian Bay for a lot longer than on Lake O tribs. The no kill zone might also have an impact. Finally what is the population of Wasaga. Does that qualify as an urban fishery to you? Hard to fathom how anyone can't appreciate how over harvest of edible animals can outstrip the natural environment's ability to replenish the lost stocks of biomass unless enhanced/influenced by man through human migration, animal husbandry or conservation. It is essentially the story of mankind after all. Maybe you missed that decade at school. Still waiting?

I've had a pontoon kickboat for some time and I would say that a trolling motor/battery on that boat would be problematic. Too heavy by quite a bit. Trolling motors are pretty much a waste of time anyway particularly if you can attach a rodholder that would allow you to troll from spot to spot. You will find that moving around your lakes will produce as much as honey holes particularly if there are pike, trout, salmon, walleye and bass in your fishing lexicon. All those species respond well to trolling, frequently better than cast and retrieve. In the end you will also find that a)fish in small lakes quickly become conditioned to trolling motors and running them will actually shut the fish down. I find this to be the case when I fish some of the local impoundments where rental tinnies powered by trolling motors come near me. At some point it is likely that you will come to appreciate the tranquility of manpower over horsepower in any sort of truly natural environment C) I think you might also come to appreciate the stress relief that comes from gentle exercise that comes from rowing. Your fitness level will improve in about the most painless and pleasurable way possible if you allow yourself the effort of rowing around for hours on end rewarding yourself with some great angling moments.

Catch and release makes it all work. Great report and fantastic fish. Do the Bass fight well under these circumstances?

To Sinker's point over harvest will consistently trump natural reproduction. That's why, in places where natural reproduction is the management technique, minimal limits, retention of stockers only, slot sizes, roe bans, bait bans, gear restrictions and outright ban on harvest is the norm for virtually every jurisdiction where Steelhead and Salmon are found...except Ontario. Habitat is most definitely NOT the key, it is far from simple and this does apply to any species that people like to eat(or use their spawn for bait). You are correct on one point, stocking will NEVER END in an urban fishery where there's 4 million potential anglers that need homes, industry, waste disposal etc. It's a reality fundamental to an abundant fishery.

Grimace a great deal depends on what species you are concerned with. Steelhead/Rainbows have a much more diverse forage base than Salmon, that's one of the reasons they are the most widely distributed non native fish in the world. Given a depressed abundance of shad and smelts in Lake Ontario then Steelhead will eat Gobies, bugs, crustaceans I'm told they even eat fleas. Salmon will starve in the same situation. The true bottom line is that there are lots of Steelhead in Lake Ontario but distribution is not so great and the reason is obvious to most anglers (but not so much here). Ontario has entered into a Devils bargain with New York that mandates massive stocking in American tribs while Ontario will attempt "sustainable" natural reproduction with only very limited stocking (and a lot of the MNR stocking is in fact from old brood stock from a suspect original strain of rainbow. In many cases even this is not the total story as MNR stocking technique often means dumping the stockers off breakwalls and in harbours. It is a horrible waste of a shallow resource). We are now living with the results. Tons of fish in New York tribs, maybe even more abundance than is healthy, and, despite what the coffee clatch here is selling, a lot less Steelhead in our tribs to a level that makes killing any of what is available here a tragedy that anglers adamantly refuse to acknowledge. Roe angling/collection exacerbates this situation greatly.

Who said stocking had to be from brood stock. Certainly not the Americans as they also take striped eggs only. Stocking most definitely should only be from wild fish and at no time did I ever say it should be otherwise. The originating strain is important as well. The Saugeen is a better fishery today because of large scale and CONSISTENT stocking and even though it is a great fishery today if they stop stocking it will fall precipitously. Fortunately there are no plans that I am aware of to stop stocking and transferring fish at the Saugeen. Any fishery with any species other than Carp, where anglers insist on carrying off the fish they catch in large unsustainable numbers will be doomed to shortages. This is magnified with steelhead due to the fact that "traditional" roe anglers will always keep hens over bucks because they get meat and bait as opposed to meat only. I guess it makes them feel better but in a highly populated area like the GTA the skewed numbers taken will always outstrip the natural reproductive capacity of the river enhanced stream improvements not withstanding. I hope things are better at the Credit and steam improvements are no doubt a good thing but the continued insistence of anglers keeping hens will simply mean that at the end of the day there will just be more and fuller stringers as the new anglers ape the experienced ones, including the executives of a "conservation" group, that demonstrate by action that roe collection as a fishing tactic is ok. Roe collection/prioritized retention of hens is not ok in any fishery faced with shortages. Period. In addition roe use under such circumstances is only allowed in Ontario no where else that I know of would permit it.Since it appears that addiction to eggs for bait is an unchangeable tradition in this province, and the MNR has clearly decided that this is the case, then there has to be a large scale stocking effort to replace the lost breeders with replacements just like they have done down south and, to a lesser extent, on the 'Geen.

Anyone fished the Saugeen lately? Is it a fishery driven by stream improvement? No. It's driven by stocking, heavy stocking by a dedicated fishing club that by and large consider CRAA and it's methods laughable. They have worked around the MNR to find a way to re create a fishery were CRAA can't find that path. Would it be an even better fishery if roe as bait was not permitted? Yes, it would be, however just like down here anglers are trained from early on that the way to catch salmonoids is to use eggs. It is not the only way nor even the best way to catch salmonoids but it is the easy way. Sort of like lamplighting in Australia. Or shooting Turkeys in a roost. Or targeting Bass on nests. I take lots of flack from other steelheaders over this issue no doubt. It's always the same guys, roe anglers all, who essentially frame all their perspective in light of a base of fishing with the spawn of a fish they claim to want to conserve. It is absurd obviously and you don't see any other angling group even considering targeting spawning fish to get bait. I repeat, give anglers a self policing environment and you will see carnage as a result. I also suggest that any angler that thinks stocked steelhead are "dumb" or "weak" go down to the Whirlpool in April or May and see just how dumb/weak they are. Or go out to the blue zone in August and deal with the schooling steelies out there. Weak, I think not. Willing biters, yes they are that but it could hardly be considered a negative trait in a gamefish.

Craig makes a great point, as always. Ontario anglers must face reality and learn to count as a good day, a fish retention less outing. Something clearly not practiced here. It goes without saying that many of the charter guys and even more so the derby guys, take way too many fish usually with some screed about the fish dying anyway or the needs or rights to turn a fishery into a contest, for profit(for a very elite few). With that said the idea that bait anglers are not the biggest problem defies simple mathematics. There must be at least 20k stream anglers in the GTA (there's probably more if casual early season trout opener anglers are counted). If they keep 2 hens per season, or 6 per season like some chap thinks is "reasonable" then you are knocking 20 to 60k HENS out of the breeding pool on top of natural attrition. You guys are targeting the breeding females of the fish you claim to love... for bait. It is unsustainable and everyone knows it. The other pap, usually served up by CRAA is that stream improvement is a panacea answer to fisheries improvement. Well they've been at it for 20+ years so where's the improvement fellas. Bottom line the route to improvement is through large scale stocking just like what is being successfully done about 40 miles due south across Lake O or Lake Erie. Tens of thousands of fish in every stream and who cares if the headwaters are warm. Under those circumstances even bait angling can be allowed without it ruining the fishing for the other anglers. Unfortunately both the thumb twiddling of the MNR toward salmonoids and the misdirection from CRAA/OFAH we won't get large scale stocking nor will we get any semblance of enforcement so we are left with anglers self policing. Given self policing as a policy directed at the general public all I can say is God help us, we are doomed.

That video is hilarious....and true

Proudly eating contaminated fish, "needing" roe or no angling success, the lake guys are selfish , the river guys are numerous and the story remains the same year after year. It's amazing there's any fish to catch at all. The true solution is NO roe fishing, NO keeping wild fish, Salmon /Steelhead tags that limit ANNUAL catch not daily or weekly limits roundly abused by all (Federal law mandates that roe IS considered a fish but as it is a Federal Statute the lame MNR does not enforce it). These laws would put Ontario on par with BC, the place these animals come from and where these ARE the rules. Unfortunately we are left with the bait angling and cooler stuffing crowd governed by self policing, God help us.

They are definitely cover girls at this time of year. Well done.

I saw the show and the earlier one too, Reefer Madness, which was about ocean reefs and their destruction. Both were good for young kids if a little light on new information or any hint of a solution. The Caribbean has it's own alien invader and LOTS of problems from over development. You can see it coming from miles away, all that Caribbean Riviera ultimately looking about as attractive as Wasaga Beach with filthy, stinking water devoid of aquatic life. By then 20th Century robber barons will have moved on to the middle of the Pacific assuming it isn't a big plastic filled toilet bowl. The Carpagedddon film did offer up a solitary firm trying to make a living from Big Head and Silver Carp (since Buffalo Fish and Catfish are now virtually gone)but he pointed out they make literally pennies for carp.

TV Ontario has a new series on water starting tonight and one episode concerns the Asian Carp problem. Maybe they have some new solutions that we have not heard yet (like how to cook them lol) It's on at 7:30 tonight. The first episode is on at 7:00. Maybe solutions to the Asian Carp might be a bit optimistic in a half hour show.

If you like Salmon DON"T read this http://alexandramorton.typepad.com Of course it's not just the Feds but the BC government is in cahoots too. Read the whole blog in it's entirety and you will see why we a doomed.It goes way beyond environmental assessment.

NEVER NEVER NEVER stop part of the way up. You won't start up again. When I go down I tend to fish the Glen area or the mouth of the Whirlpool itself. THATS a hike when it comes to returning up the hill. A little tip from Outward Bound. When going up simply place your foot in front of you and the concentrate on straightening your leg. Repeat with the next step. Concentrate on straitening your leg not on stepping up. It seems silly but it's the acknowledged way to trec without exhausing yourself. The stair steps that are actually intact at the top of the hill do require more of a step up but I believe there's only 124 of those

The walk is not that bad if it is DRY. If it has been wet the walk can be dangerous. The steps are the very definition of bad workmanship. Great place to fish though, the current and highly oxygenated water really gives them steam. The place actually makes a mockery of the often stated opinion that New York State stockers are "weak".

Bill's Bait or Fishing World should do the replacement. Phone first.

Don Cherry is a ego driven bully and lunatic, traits which fit ice hockey perfectly. His point the other night about the Leafs not having even one Ontario guy on the team while most of the competition have several Ontario boys on their teams speaks volumes. The opposition comes into the ACC with several highly motivated players for every game, our players are motivated by $$$ only. Guess which wins out. Also, the Leafs need defense but we trade a promising stay at home defender for a kid that looks truly out of place in big league hockey. I'd say that's a management error, one among many. With all of that said I still think Carlyle is a good coach who has shown his teams can win it all....assuming the talent is there.