Muskies, sort of interesting?

[Tom McCutcheon]

A lot of the US mid west states have reverted to a stocking program of hybrids. Just because stocking a natural muskie did not work. It is a put and leave it fishery as the hybrids are sterile.

 

Again, stocking is the very last and costly resort if the current fishery is lost.

Mother nature just might handle everything herself and find a solution to the two species learning to live together in the Kawarthas.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Tom McCutcheon

[outllaw]

excellent trent university involved in the research/studys.

[outllaw]

glen stocking muskies are very expensive and man hours are countless. mci has been involved and theres guys that literally have decades of involvement. plus funds need to be raised.

[Musky or Specks]

A lot of the US mid west states have reverted to a stocking program of hybrids. Just because stocking a natural muskie did not work. It is a put and leave it fishery as the hybrids are sterile.

 

Again, stocking is the very last and costly resort if the current fishery is lost.

Mother nature just might handle everything herself and find a solution to the two species learning to live together in the Kawarthas.

It's not that natural muskie didn't work Its that tiger muskie can be raised a lot cheaper because they will feed on pellets where as musky have to be feed on live fish.

[Marc Thorpe]

Good to see you guys following up on this Tom, John Crocksbury (Might be miss spelled) brought his up some years ago about crow.

I agree with you ,introducing a Foreign Family that has not evolved in the same environment might not be whats best. Might create further imbalance within the ecosystem.

Evolution is by far the best adaptation tool,although a lengthy process, we can have confidence that Ma Nature will evolve and assure survival of the populations. Muskie by their very nature are very adaptive, a time process will have to be observed and allow evolutionary adaptation to occur.

Possibly a dip in population but the recovery will be much stronger and allow surviving YOY to evolve with the presence of a secondary apex predator.

Genetic study and maintaining genetic structure is the future of fisheries management.

To this day many geneticist are trying to elaborate if past stocking/introductions of foreign families have diluted originals populations or not.

Its probably more prudent to maintain same genetic family structures and allow evolution to take over and rebuild more durable ,evolutionary coexisting populations

Edited December 7, 2014 by marc thorpe

[Raf]

i am no biologist but seems to me another difference between lakes where the two species co-exist is depth and size. the max depth of 30-40' found in the kawarthas is a mere shoal on the bodies of water where they live in harmony. there are exceptions (st clair and nipissing -- but what they lack in depth, they make up for in size). not sure it means anything just an observation.

[Musky or Specks]

i am no biologist but seems to me another difference between lakes where the two species co-exist is depth and size. the max depth of 30-40' found in the kawarthas is a mere shoal on the bodies of water where they live in harmony. there are exceptions (st clair and nipissing -- but what they lack in depth, they make up for in size). not sure it means anything just an observation.

This is mostly true but there are lots of exceptions. I think the more important factor is an abundance of alternative spawing structure( ie more rubble/rock in deeper water as opposed to an abundance of shallow weeds).

 

Good to see you guys following up on this Tom, John Crocksbury (Might be miss spelled) brought his up some years ago about crow.

 

I agree with you ,introducing a Foreign Family that has not evolved in the same environment might not be whats best. Might create further imbalance within the ecosystem.

 

Evolution is by far the best adaptation tool,although a lengthy process, we can have confidence that Ma Nature will evolve and assure survival of the populations. Muskie by their very nature are very adaptive, a time process will have to be observed and allow evolutionary adaptation to occur.

 

Possibly a dip in population but the recovery will be much stronger and allow surviving YOY to evolve with the presence of a secondary apex predator.

 

Genetic study and maintaining genetic structure is the future of fisheries management.

 

To this day many geneticist are trying to elaborate if past stocking/introductions of foreign families have diluted originals populations or not.

 

Its probably more prudent to maintain same genetic family structures and allow evolution to take over and rebuild more durable ,evolutionary coexisting populations

Excellent post. And yes, for every species the gene pool that allowed those fish to survive in that lake/river/pond/stream is uniquely designed thru trial and error to produce the best fish for that particular water body.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Musky or Specks

[Marc Thorpe]

Raf ,biodiversity (abundance of various species and abundance of species to predate upon) has more impact on growth than depth of water among many other factors such as genetics ,some great big fish come very small puddles.

[John Bacon]

And yes, for every species the gene pool that allowed those fish to survive in that lake/river/pond/stream is uniquely designed thru trial and error to produce the best fish for that particular water body.

 

That would be true for natural lakes. However, the Kawartha chain of lakes was only created 180 years ago. The current muskie population evolved to survive in the pike free rivers and few small lakes that existed prior to construction of the Trent/Severn. They did not evolve to compete with pike in a series of interconnected man made lakes.

 

A different strain may be better suited to the new habitat.

 

If the current population gets wiped out because it cannot compete with pike; then stocking the same strain is not likely to create a self sustaining population. A different strain has the potential to establish a self sustaining population.

[Marc Thorpe]

Hi John we must be careful when utilizing the word "Strain", My understanding is strains evolved from isolation during glacier receding,which I am not aware this has been identified in muskellunge.

Ex Lake trout

 

http://www.fishfactor.tv/documents/Lake%20Trout-Truite%20Grise/Lake%20trout%20strains.pdf

I know Bernard Lebeau advanced riverine and lacustrine ,but some biologist advance Northern Muskellunge versus Great Lakes muskellunge

 

Much has still to be learned,many geneticist are hard at work from NY /ONT/QC/MI/ MN and WI to unravel the origins of NA populations and if stocking/introduction has led to dilution and what factors have aided or not dilution if it has occurred
Here is some important notes and study on DNA and muskies

"Understanding the historical distribution and contemporary genetic spatial
structure of Muskellunge will help resource managers conserve the genetic resources of this important species.
Koppelman and Philipp (1986) stated that stocking Muskellunge into an established population may reduce fitness by irre-versibly disrupting locally adapted gene complexes. This warning is repeatedly echoed in the fisheries literature (Crossman
1984; Reisenbichler and Rubin 1999; Miller and Kapuscinski
2003; Jennings et al. 2010). If one assumes that observations
of neutral (microsatellite) genetic diversity and spatial structure
are indicative of adaptive variation in the genome, even at a
remedial level, then our results strongly support these warnings"

https://masquinongy.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/kapuscinski-et-al-2013_mky-genetics.pdf

[Gregoire]

Mature musky are a warm water species compared to Pike. The Kawartha lakes are shallow and warm for the most part. To me this indicates that Musky have an evolutionary advantage in the system.I have not followed the Pike Invasion project, but think that it would be valuable to look at the success of the pike spawn. I know that there are currently a lot of smaller pike in Balsam, but I have not heard of many 40"+ pike caught, ones that can compete with Musky for prime forage areas.

The Kawartha strain of musky is an incredible. It is amazing that a high density population of musky that is naturally reproducing exists. .

My observation is short term, but in the 5 years I have been fishing the system, the fishery seems to be improving, especially in terms of size.

I have nothing against studying the impact that pike can make on the system, but think that we need to hold off on intervening. If we start to stock the system, it should only be with Kawartha strain fish, and we should realize that continued stocking of the system will be needed. Stocking a Great Lakes strain a few times and hoping that the new strain will find a way to survive is misguided in my opinion.