Leafs fans wait till the 4th!

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

while sundin might have seemed like a marquee player to sens fans like myself (got burned by him in many battle of ontarios) I don't think Toronto has had a true star in a long time. i really don't think kessel is that star.

 

i look forward to this years "battle of the basement" so my sens can show burke what a rebuild looks like.

[ehg]

I certainly didn't forget Matts! He was a skill player, but not a marquee player in that he did not take advantage of his position in this market, outside of his on ice performance... and that was the point of my post.

HH

Ya, but Mats Sundin was one of the best players in the world for a bit when with laffs.

 

Another great player, one of the best all round ever, was a long time Leaf. Wendel Clark!

Aside from his D'Angelo apple juice commercials he seemed to be shy to be "marquee".

 

Your right though HH, Gilmour really was toast of this town... doesn't look like there is any similar in future.

At least us Montrealers in the future have Subban et al; and somehow always don't run into these problems.

[Nipfisher]

What about Owen Nolan, Mike Gartner, and the "washed up defenceman" from the Rangers. Why keep taking these guys at the ends of their careers? The leafs need to develop their own marquee player. Not rent or buy one off the market. Burke said it would take 4 years. This is year 3 I believe.

[jedimaster]

I am hopeful, but Burkes 4 year plan included giving up two number 1's for Kessle to pan out.

[kickingfrog]

For many people Mats did only 2 things wrong.

 

1. He was born in Sweden, not Canada.

 

2. He played for the Leafs.

 

 

Oh and he apparently didn't pimp himself out enough?

[Jigger]

 

 

i look forward to this years "battle of the basement" so my sens can show burke what a rebuild looks like.

 

There really should be a sarcasm font

 

Mats is the best player to ever wear the Blue and White IMO.

 

Edit: When Seguin scores 3 consecutive 30 goal seasons you can tell me the Leafs lost that deal. I guess it'll have to be 4 because Phil has already done 3.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Jigger

[cjgraham]

Toronto had a marquee player.....his name was Jeff Finger.

Edited July 5, 2011 by cjgraham

[tb4me]

I have to agree Sundin was a great leaf too..Anyone that says other wise just search him on youtube. It wont take long to see he was a great leaf..Ya he didnt pimp himself out after the games and on commercials. But why bother when your bringing home 5.5 mill a year..I know I wouldnt. I also think Wyndel Clarke Tie Domi and Darcy Tucker was all that was leafs in their prime. Anyway great thread folks! I enjoy the read. Lets keep it going

[Jds63]

My wife bought me a Leaf Jersey , paid big bucks too... with Domi's name .... she always heard me yelling his name every time he was on the ice so she figured that was who I liked the most .... always enjoyed watching Sundin as well ... he gave us some great memorable goals, as did Sittler, Salming, Gilmour and Clark.

 

I can remember watching the Leafs back in the the late 60's, but was a Bruins and Habs fan as a kid. Now I am watching a whole new era of Leafs hope they get another young lad to step up and be a superstar, we need it !!!!

[blaque]

Mcarthur and Connolly re-united. lol You guys did pretty well snapping up Mcarthur from us as i believe he panned out well for you last year? Or at least had a few streaks that i recall.

 

I can assure you however, you will be disapponted with your latest sabre acquisition. Next to Roy........he was tops on the list of players we wanted to go bye bye. For example.......if we wanted to stretch and give him any praise at all, we had to look HARD and found a small bright spot in his penalty killing. Not exactly what your looking for in a player of his supposed skill. Buffalo milked that cow for a long LONG tenure and i wish him well...........but i assure you guys, you will not be impressed.

 

I almost feel bad for the guy as hes had a tough go at it injury wise........he surely has the talent, but it doesnt manifest itself on the ice.

[jedimaster]

The numbers are better comming back for the Leafs but I doubt any leaf fan is thinking any of the moves this year is going put us over the top. I dout anyone from the sabres could make a difference.

 

Some people enjoyed the plodding along of Sundin with flashes of great skill. The truth is he mailed it in long before he left Toronto. Sundin is and always will be in my mind a good hockey player, with little heart, no leadership and good hands. A solid supporting character. Does e remind you of anyone on the Leafs now? Kessle. he has a similar makeup but I think Kessle is a better pure goal scorer. He desperatly needs a leader to follow. I can't even imagine how people would breahe Clarke, Gilmour or Sittler in the same breathe as Sundin. Makes me ill.

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

did sundin et al ever make it past the 2nd round? maybe once in the late 90's?

Edited July 6, 2011 by Dr. Salvelinus

[Live2fish85]

I agree with Jedimaster Sundin was good but nothing to compare to Gilmour, Clarke, Sittler they all had a love for the game and true heart Mats didn't have that he was skilled and that's about it. Gilmour was the last truely good player for the leafs. And kessel is a usless twit. He won't ever do anything for a team as long as they don't have someone willing to skate it up and pass it to kessel he's nothing. Kessel is a chicken. I know Kessel has skill but the balls aren't there or the true heart. IMO.

[jedimaster]

I believe on 98-99 and 01-02, but this was with some great leaders that the leafs brought in like Mogilny, Cujo, Gilmour, Tucker, Roberts, Belfour

[jedimaster]

I have to disagree.

 

He wasn't the same style of player as Gilmour, or Clarke. Just because his emotions weren't out there for everyone to see, doesn't mean he didn't play with heart.

 

 

I don't recal seeing Roberts going on outbursts or rants but he did play with emotion and played with heart and was a leader. A player doesn't need to rant and rave on the ice. But he has play with heart. Something Sundin rarely did. Look at how great he played when he played for his country in the olympics. He played gritty, hard and with heart. Something I rarely saw him do even in the playoffs. and I saw several deep play off games in person. This is just my opinion though. Like I mentioned some people liked that floater style of play.

[jedimaster]

I am hopeful for kessel. He has the skill, he has the wheels He won't see his full potential if he doesn't learn to play with more grit to create his own chances or have a solid, fast playmaker beside him. I was really hoping for Richards. I think Richards, Kessle, and Grabovsky would have made an amazing first line for the leafs. Maybe we have a chance at drury, He wouldn't be half bad either.

Man oh man I gotta stop reading this thread, I have Leafs on the brain and its only the begining of July.

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

30 goals is great but when you're on the ice for more goals against than for, what's the point. he was -20 last year which is very indicative of the fact that he's a one dimensional player with little to no defensive responsiblity. true marquee players make other people around them better, they don't rely on other players to make them good.

 

 

i don't agree in any way that sundin had no heart though. the guy had heart, scored a lot of clutch goals, and led by example by being at both ends of the rink. i think mats made the players around him better for sure!

 

he would have been a great leader if the team wasn't full of a rotating cast of retiring hockey players much of the early millenium.

[Jigger]

Ya, i guess Sundin never did get the number of cups that Gilmour, Clarke, Sittler, MacDonald or Roberts did with the Leafs. And here i sat thinking that the leading point getter in Leafs history had to be a great player...

[ryan a harris]

When I was a teen, I remember watching Game 6 in 1993 against the Kings, in LA. Clark scores 3 goals, puts the team on his back to force a game 7. Because of that game Clark became the best leaf in my mind, or should I say my favorite Leaf. Now Sundin was captain of the Swedish team that won gold, he was a great leader for players like Lidstorm, forsberg. Those 2 even mentioned how great of a leader Mats was. Mats was done for in Toronto, because he was traded for the teams captain and fan fav. Most goals, most points(I think as well), but yeah he was no good. In a stretch from 99-02 the leafs had the MOST playoff games played, true no cup, but 4 goods playoff runs. If I recall correctly, Sundin had an emergency route canal, 6 hours in the chair, then played in a playoff game against the Hurrincane`s. Not many of us would do that, then go to work, no less an NHL playoff game. But yeah he had no hart.

 

I`m a big leaf fan, and I think I have a good handle on reality. They have not done enough yet, but Burke has stuck to his plan, I like what he is doing. A marquee player will not fall into the Leafs lap. Kessel is also done for in Toronto, because of what he was traded for, 2 1st rounders. Kessel is the youngest player in today's game to have 30 goal season in 3 straight years. He may not be the best guy with the media, or even the best team mate. But the guy can score! Every team that wins has a good goal scorer. His talents are needed here, because if not him, who would socre?

 

Go Leafs Go!

[cjgraham]

The problem with Kessel is he basically has one move and thats top shelf glove side. Goalies have him pegged, and I don't see very many more goals past 30. I hope conally can help but that was truly a desperation move. It will be interesting to see whether Reimer can carry this team in net, but if this is what we have going into the season its going to be another long one of presumably crossed fingers and false hopes.

[jedimaster]

Funny thing about stats.... Ask yourself this. Who has the most wins in a single season for a Toronto Maple leafs goalie. Would you consider him among the best goalies ever? I hardly think so. If you have talent and your on he ice your going to score. I am not saying sundin wasn't good. In fact I said he had good hands. Just was never a great like Clarke, Sittler or Gilmour. He never played with the fire that these guys did. It has nothing to do with where he is from or how many public endoresments he had. He just didn't play with the fire. Imagine if Tucker had the size and skill of Sundin. He no dout logged a tone of minutes and played every power play over the years and of course was bound to get lots of points. In my eyes he just didn't play with the grit, heart and tenacity of the three players that were mentioned.

[Jds63]

I 'll give you the point that "stats don't mean everything" but your idea of a guy that plays with heart is based on your comparison to Canadian players , that have a different style of play. Some European players play with heart and grit but may not show it. I guess you would say that Borje Salming didn't play with heart ... When the Leafs traded away Clark and Sundin came over, the world was going to end for the Leafs nation ... Sundin was a pleasure to watch he gave his heart to Toronto over the years. It just sucked the way it ended.

 

I have been to a fair number of Leafs games,.. LOL (ya call me nuts) but let me tell you something about heart ... I just don't get why Leaf fans are so quiet ... half the time you can hear the blades on the ice , nobody is yelling at the other team , last year i sat in the last row at the ACC and i think i found where the true fans were ... it was louder up there than at ice level I am sure ... get all those corporate off their BB's out of those front seats and let the true fans have the privelege of cheering for their team

[grimsbylander]

Singling out players for how they play, or don't play, is a difficult thing. It's the mix of skills that make a team great. Just like us...we all take an assortment of rods out fishing because 8 flipping sticks doesn't do it. That's why GM's are so critical, they have to find that correct mix at the right time, for the right money. IMHO.

[jedimaster]

Grit, tenacity and heart are shown on the ice. I rarely saw that from Sundin. Good skilled hands, lots of ice time, and few other players to score on the team are what lead to his stats. However I would still not put him in the same sentance as Gilmour, clarke, Sittler, roberts etc...... That doesn't mean I think Sundin was a bad player. He was good, but not one of the greatest Leafs.

[kickingfrog]

Another fact about stats. If you are going to use them, you should know how they are derived.

 

Plus/minus, on its own, is a stat that holds less and less importance to people in, or who know, hockey.

 

Someone with a negative +/- was not necessarily on the ice for more goals for than against. Skaters receive a minus only when they are on the ice for an even strength goal against or if there is a shorthanded goal against.

 

Skaters do not receive a plus when they are on the ice for a powerplay goal.

 

Guys who rack up a large portion of their points on the powerplay will often have a lower then expected plus/minus. Yes, these guys are one demential, but no one wants a powerplay with no punch either.

 

It is also a stat that favours players on good teams. A mediocre player on a good team will often have a higher plus/minus than a good player on a bad team.

 

On its own the plus/minus number is often less then useless.