New fish Ladder under Construction on the Credit

[aniceguy]

I and anyone from CRAA is open and willing to talk to other NGO's I have sent that message a dozen times Dave only to get a "piss off" right back at some point when does someone realize there is no hope for compromise

Its not cramming an agenda and its really not CRAA who is the up front vocal group on unfettered access of all migratory fish to the cataract

 

This on going vocalism is just shedding light to the true facts, years of political correctness and hoping that the olive branch gets taken I sadly think might be gone, anyhow this is going down a different path if you wiah Dave you can call me any time, maybe you can call TU and Issiac Walton and see if you can broker even a meeting

[wallacio]

Fair enough, I will certainly bring up this issue next time TU comes knocking for renewal of membership.

[john from craa]

Talk about a classic de-railing of some truly awesome news. The issue of species mix is for another thread.

 

For those who mis-read the opening post Louis made, CRAA hopes to lift steelhead at the new ladder rather than streetsville in spring. The steelhead will be manually transported to control spawning access as we have done for the past 7 years. As Justin noted, the drive will be short, rather than 40 minutes from Streetsville and fish that passed Streetsville will be lifted whereas they were missed in past years. That is awesome news in itself. Streetsville may be left open for fish to pass on their own in spring. Come fall both ladders will need to be manually operated to stop Pacific salmon at Streetsville, manually transfer steelhead and pass browns and Atlantics, plus other species past Norval.

 

The fish are stopped/segregated by the rules created in the Fisheries Mgt Plan. Since the plan was writted in 1998-2002, a great deal of new information has come to light. This includes:

 

1. Chinook salmon are running between 40-70% wild in Lake Ontario based on fin clips. A decade ago we were told they were all hatchery fish (oops).

2. There is literally 10 times more research looking at species mix (i.e. browns and rainbows) today than a decade ago. Professional opinions were also not shared with anglers 12 years ago that also suggested resident browns would be fine.

3. Lake Anglers were excluded from the meetings, as well as Ontario Steelheaders and other groups.

4. Reviews of species mix focussed mainly on allopatric relationships (negative interactions) and failed to examine sympatric (positive) interactions. As scientific knowledge builds the examples of positive interactions substancially outweigh negative interactions.

 

Without a doubt, any manmade barrier has negative impacts on fish when it blocks a natural system. This fish ladder serves to correct a wrong from the middle of the 1800's! What the future holds for lake fish to access the river is still to be detirmined. New information and research is always changing the outlook. What we know in 2011 is lightyears ahead of 2001 for the river and species mix.

 

The value of allowing the dozens of minnow species to migrate freely once again in itself is astonomical. So is the value to lifting all the wild steelhead (even if it is for transport for now), or that resident browns that have been trapped below this dam will now have free access to spawn successfully for the first time ever. Or that rare migrating brook trout can for the first time in 160 years reach their spawning grounds again. Or that Atlantic salmon can also reach spawning grounds cut off for 160 years. Each and every one of these examples is cause for excitiment for the fishery.

 

To put the species issue to bed, here are a few points.

 

Before reading understand the following:

 

Atlantic salmon, brook trout, bass and white sucker, etc ate all native fish.

Brown trout, rainbow trout and Pacific salmon are naturalized NON native fish (but desired)

Exotics are Asian carp, ruffe, goby, etc.

New evidence also suggests Sea Lamprey were native to Lake Ontario, but this is still up in the air.

 

There is not a single system in the Great Lakes where a resident population of non native brown trout was displaced by rainbows (not one). Yet there are many examples were steelhead runs exploded as a result of allowing increased access for rainbows (Grand and Saugeen Rivers are great examples - I have many more). There are many more rivers where browns and rainbows have co-existed for a century and both maintain strong populations. Lake Superior has many examples of brook trout doing extremely well with trout and pacific salmon all over the place. Once limits were lowered and hydro flows set the numbers are exploding in many systems according to several local researchers and anglers. The number one cause of fish decline are humans, not other fish. Looking at research there are papers covering the entire spectrum. Some suggest if a steelhead or browns or salmon shows up that brook trout will be lost, others suggest that brook trout are displacing pacifics and browns and steelhead. Some blame steelhead for preventing Atlantic success, yet other research shows the Atlantics displace rainbows. In all this there is only one constant. When dams are built they screw up fish populations. When they are removed they benefit fish.

 

Biodiversity and habitat diversity are the keys to success, not species segregation and isolation. A river with only 1 specie of fish will produce x biomass, with 5 species it may produce 2x biomass and with 20 species it may produce 5x biomass. Each specie has a niche and as long as you have significant and variable habitat you will have multiple species with more fish than ever. ASF just spent 24 million dollars buying three dams on the Penobscot River in Maine. They plan to remove 2 and build a bypass for the third. That will open up 1,000 miles of river access to Atlanic salmon, stripped bass, and dozens of other species. Note the extent the US will go to to correct historical mistakes. They are 30 years ahead of Canada on such remedial works.

 

John

[solopaddler]

 

Talk about a classic de-railing of some truly awesome news. The issue of species mix is for another thread.

 

 

Exactly how do you figure John when migratory fish aren't permitted to use the ladder?? Seriously give your head a shake.

 

It's undoubtedly great news and no one would ever play down the work you and others are doing at CRAA but the criticism is perfectly valid.

[Grimace]

Talk about a classic de-railing of some truly awesome news. The issue of species mix is for another thread.

 

 

I do not agree. I thought he addressed his concerns in a dignified way. You have 19 posts on this board and I would bet that all of them have to do with your own agenda.

 

Do not be such a bully.

 

I do not have a pony in this race as I do not fly fish nor do I float fish.

[john from craa]

Mike - if you want to see more species of migratory fish use the ladder than make sure you voice your position at future public meetings as they come up. Nothing I would love to see more. But Mike, maybe you did not read my whole post or Justin's. We are missing 30-50% of the steelhead run that slip over Streetsville and get stuck below Norval and could not spawn successfully. This new ladder will allow us to lift those fish too. Not to mention browns, bass and any Atlantic's. That is all the migratory gamefish present in the section. Hopefully you make it out for some lifts this spring.

 

My agenda ought to be crystal clear - try and get anglers involved and educated about the fishery we all enjoy and get more people to volunteer to make it better. Louis started the thread to update the community about the exciting project regarding volunteers raising money and helping MNR to build a fish ladder that is badly needed on the river.

 

John

[spinnerdoc]

When I said ruffle feathers I immediately thought of you as I know your passion for those upper Credit fish.

AS I said from the initial post this is a social issue and has nothing to do with the science behind it, it has been a 12 year plus effort to compromise, a few years back I approached a senior member of TU and asked if we can have a dialogue on this very matter, maybe I thought that even though we act as advisors to the MNR a unified front on a location of some sort of barrier would solve this issue once and for all. The answer I recieved was short of graphic but none the less it summed up to not in a milion years.

 

In answer to comprimise, how can there be one when a few stakeholders when given the opportunity to provide input as to a location, dont but in fact say that there should be no barrier, craa transfers shouldnt be allowed and stocking level should be dropped or eliminated all together, please answer that Dave, where is the comprimise there.

 

As to the Upper Credit while there is some uniqueness its far from being a stand alone fishery and I think we both can provide several rivers where the Brown fishing is even better, and yes it is an elitists attitude when one wants to protect one fish and a way of fishing for it, over other fish and multiple methods, its about Pro fish, alot of guys want that no kill removed and allow for fish retention, imagine how that would impact things

We all know have seen and heard of guys up there intimidating someone who isnt fishing a 4wt, this summer I personally know soemone who went up and fished single plastic eggs, a pink worm and such with float gear, only to have a dent in his car, and 3 very regular guys from there pretty much slide next to him and rip him a new one for his technique, thier comments were " you dont belong here" go to erindale.

My parents neighbor a 78 yr old who fished the upper in the 50's took his grandson, they parked at the grange slide down and fished, the boy had a bobber, and a berkley power bait egg sac, off the bridge a few guys ended up tossing rocks in the pool and threatened to call the police due to his angling tactics, of which to old man knew were within his rights, yet another example of the goings on that occur up there, while there are some great guys who fish up there, an equal amount of elitists exist who have said right to my face they would kill and drop in the bush any steelhead parr smolt or mature fish they saw, imagine how I felt hearing that...

The best streches of the upper are dominated by 3 or 4 property owners, of which one is so enraged over garbage that thier access might dissapear this year potenitally complete with private security guards enforcing this No access.

 

A decade ago there might have been comprimise, if groupls like TU and Issiac Walton were willing to even talk, these days growing numbers of anglers lake wise and stream wise are more educated and want more fish and with Ontario's biodiversity and sustaniability stratagy the Credit should be wide open allowing all migratory fish to utilize its avaliable habitat the time for status quo is gone, again if brown trout are managed and classified the same as rainbows and we know genetically the browns in the upper and lake are one in the same, lake run browns are allowed there now, why cant rainbows, when someone can answer that Im all ears until then I stand true that its time for a change

 

Of interest in a recent economic valuation of the credit steelhead out ranked in orders of magnitude all other fish, additional access for steelhead provide additional economic opportunities. Something else to ponder in all my years of lifting fish from Streetsville and with all the open invitations to Trout Unlimited and Issiac Walton I have yet to see any member of thier board or executive come to help with transfers< I wonder why

 

I was at Belfountain provincial park last summer, and saw lots of rainbows there hangin round, asked the park workers by the gate and he talked about them with disdain, telling me how they are aggressive and would displace the native species. It seems like the incidents you mentioned probably wont be the last with attitudes like that.

[kerr]

keep those greasy trout away from the east side and boq:) good job guys, and good luck

[timmeh]

I was at Belfountain provincial park last summer, and saw lots of rainbows there hangin round, asked the park workers by the gate and he talked about them with disdain, telling me how they are aggressive and would displace the native species..

 

I have noticed this in a small trib that I fish for brookies in. It's not in the Credit watershed but same deal. Steelie run has grown on the river and now it's getting harder and harder to find nice brookies in this little trib. No problem find steelie smolts though. This is why I'd rather not see steelies reach the upper Credit. While they may not completely displace the resident fishery there it will add competition which will surely have some impact.

[canadadude]

I've followed the thread and I still wonder why a fish lader is built to not lift fish. I understand the arguement between the groups but why build a fish lader here, for the 100 Atlantics that may return, 2 million stocked 100 or less return are you freaking insane and now you spend thousands on a fish ladder. Is the MNR insane,the crra is ok but are you insane, 2 million stocked 100-200 returned it's a freaking bust dudes, atlantics ain't going to happen. In fact I'm tired of the arguments over the credit watershead, it's a waste of time. You don't want what could be an incredible fishery, the econmic potential is great, yet a few are there to stop it, the next is the lobby for lower creel limits, which is fine but does absoulutly nothing if you deprive stocks from reproducing.If we want more fish in the fishery we must alow our resource to reproduce if not the fishery will die it's simple.

[solopaddler]

You don't want what could be an incredible fishery, the econmic potential is great, yet a few are there to stop it, the next is the lobby for lower creel limits, which is fine but does absoulutly nothing if you deprive stocks from reproducing.If we want more fish in the fishery we must alow our resource to reproduce if not the fishery will die it's simple.

 

 

I'm pretty sure everyone involved with CRAA wants exactly what the rest of us want, a thriving natural run of steelhead.

 

Unfortunately it seems wading through a quagmire of red tape slows down the process.

 

At least the new ladder is a step in the right direction. At some point one can only hope migratory rainbows will have access to it.

 

To me it's beyond stupid, but at least there's hope now.

[farsider]

Kudos to everyones hard work coming to fruition.

 

Sadly the heavy lifting is always done by too few.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[lookinforwalleye]

I was toying with the idea of getting a fly rod and try out a new hobby this spring since I live in the middle of some great trout water but after ready this thread I think I`ll stick to my flippin stick!

[canadadude]

I'm pretty sure everyone involved with CRAA wants exactly what the rest of us want, a thriving natural run of steelhead.

 

Unfortunately it seems wading through a quagmire of red tape slows down the process.

 

At least the new ladder is a step in the right direction. At some point one can only hope migratory rainbows will have access to it.

 

To me it's beyond stupid, but at least there's hope now.

I think we're on the same page here, it's unfotunate the MNR and the CRAA don't see the economic value of a steelhead fishery, aswell as a

SALMON fishery, I know you have fished Steelhead ally on the NY/ PEN side of erie. A fishery created by the fisheries and is the best in the world, the potential for such a fishery is here if not better, lake ontario and the rivers we have from Toronto east could potentially be the best steelhead fishery in the world, unfortunately the MNR and others beleive our fishery should be natural like it was 2000 yrs ago, just a wake up dudes it's 2011 not 2000bc

[solopaddler]

I think we're on the same page here, it's unfotunate the MNR and the CRAA don't see the economic value of a steelhead fishery, aswell as a

SALMON fishery, I know you have fished Steelhead ally on the NY/ PEN side of erie. A fishery created by the fisheries and is the best in the world, the potential for such a fishery is here if not better, lake ontario and the rivers we have from Toronto east could potentially be the best steelhead fishery in the world, unfortunately the MNR and others beleive our fishery should be natural like it was 2000 yrs ago, just a wake up dudes it's 2011 not 2000bc

 

Stocking is definitely not the answer.

 

The fishery on the south shore is fun, but I'd rather catch 5 or 6 wild fish as opposed to 20 or 30 stockers any day.

 

At the moment the most exciting development for Ontario steelheaders is the rebirth of the Saugeen, primarily because the fish now have access to miles of nursery waters.

[canadadude]

Stocking is definitely not the answer.

 

The fishery on the south shore is fun, but I'd rather catch 5 or 6 wild fish as opposed to 20 or 30 stockers any day.

 

At the moment the most exciting development for Ontario steelheaders is the rebirth of the Saugeen, primarily because the fish now have access to miles of nursery waters.

 

Thats sweet but I'm looking towards Superior north shore, there steelhead fishery is growing naturally, the fish arn't as big but there sweet to catch and unlike the idiots in southern ontario they embrace steelhead run and a pacific salmon run.

 

I do agree the rebirth of the Saugeen run is great and not only the access but the local club(name notknown) stocked a bunch of yearlings and has been doing a incredible job on follow ups. This club could be a model for all Ontario stocking,...but unfortunatly we need 2 million Atlantics for 100 returns, I'd love to get the percentage on Atlantic returns, it's gotta be 0.000000007 returns hahahah it's sad but funny. I think the ole fat man Cronzy should be taking alittle credit right now hahahahaha, Say what you want the ole boy makes alot of sense, I'd love to here his opinion on the fish ladder to no where. Darryl would be all over this 10yrs ago,you never miss the good untill it's gone

[timmeh]

It's great to see groups out there fighting to improve our fisheries and I understand many want a steelhead fishery but you need to realize there are some who do not want to see every trib in Ontario managed with steelhead and salmon as the primary, or only, concern. I realize that steelies have a wider appeal than other trout species, but that doesn't mean we should do everything possible to increase their numbers at the potential loss of other fish populations. There are many good steelhead tribs in southern Ontario, but wild resident fisheries like that which exist in the Credit are fewer.

 

And I do find it really humorous that steelheaders are suggesting those who fly fish are elitists. Maybe some are, but if you want to know another way to meet elitist anglers just take a spinning reel to steelhead river in the fall. I know cause I've done this for 5 years.

[solopaddler]

Thats sweet but I'm looking towards Superior north shore, there steelhead fishery is growing naturally, the fish arn't as big but there sweet to catch and unlike the idiots in southern ontario they embrace steelhead run and a pacific salmon run.

 

I do agree the rebirth of the Saugeen run is great and not only the access but the local club(name notknown) stocked a bunch of yearlings and has been doing a incredible job on follow ups. This club could be a model for all Ontario stocking,...but unfortunatly we need 2 million Atlantics for 100 returns, I'd love to get the percentage on Atlantic returns, it's gotta be 0.000000007 returns hahahah it's sad but funny. I think the ole fat man Cronzy should be taking alittle credit right now hahahahaha, Say what you want the ole boy makes alot of sense, I'd love to here his opinion on the fish ladder to no where. Darryl would be all over this 10yrs ago,you never miss the good untill it's gone

 

There's no doubt our MNR and the eggheads that run it pander to no one.

 

They have their own agenda and to heck with the public at large.

 

I agree, the money spent on Atlantic restoration could have been far better utilized elsewhere.

[canadadude]

Again why are you building a fish ladder, why are you putting the effort in, whats the point in building a fish ladder? Trust me there are many fisheries in Ontario that would love $120,OOO why invest in the credit. This is the most bogus deal in our fishery, we invest $120,000 dollars in the credit river for a fish ladder that can't be used. If you don't want the fishery the ladder will provide then why build it, are you all idiots or is your ego so big you can't absorb defeat. This is a complete waste of money brought on by the many Toronto and southern ontario voters, to be honest it is actually a complete waste. Maybe not we save 40km to move fish hahahahaha are you kidding me , BIG DEAL

[solopaddler]

It's great to see groups out there fighting to improve our fisheries and I understand many want a steelhead fishery but you need to realize there are some who do not want to see every trib in Ontario managed with steelhead and salmon as the primary, or only, concern. I realize that steelies have a wider appeal than other trout species, but that doesn't mean we should do everything possible to increase their numbers at the potential loss of other fish populations. There are many good steelhead tribs in southern Ontario, but wild resident fisheries like that which exist in the Credit are fewer.

 

And I do find it really humorous that steelheaders are suggesting those who fly fish are elitists. Maybe some are, but if you want to know another way to meet elitist anglers just take a spinning reel to steelhead river in the fall. I know cause I've done this for 5 years.

 

No one wants to see "every" trib in Ontario managed for steelhead.

 

We are however discussing one of the largest (if not the largest?) steelhead trib's on Ontarios north shore.

 

Furthermore it sits smack dab in the middle of Mississauga, accessable to hundreds of thousands of urbanites.

 

The intrinsic benefit of a healthy, wild run of steelhead in the Credit far outweighs any possible negative impacts.

 

There are many examples even here in ON where migratory fish co-exist beautifully with wild natives. The upper reaches of the Ganaraska immediately spring to mind.

 

That excuse doesn't fly with me.

 

What's the definition of an eliteist?

 

In this specific case user groups like Trout Unlimited and Izaac Walton represent a FRACTION of the populace. They're having a large say in the goings on, and unfortunately are only lobbying to further their own narrow minded agenda. Personally I call that elitist.

 

(And for what it's worth I'm a fly fisherman)

Edited February 5, 2011 by solopaddler

[canadadude]

simple question ....why build a fish ladder, you don't wan't speceis invadiding your stream I got that, why for god sakes are you and the MNR building this fish lader for american eel, I personally don't care about the credit.

 

 

 

Edited for content here is your warning.

[Twocoda]

simple question ....why build a fish ladder, you don't wan't speceis invadiding your stream I got that, why for god sakes are you and the MNR building this fish lader for american eel, I personally don't care about the credit.

 

by all means ...try not to hold anything back...

[canadadude]

sorry I may have sounded a little crazy, but still i wonder why the MNR is building a fish ladder and not allowing the fish to be transfered.I thought I may have missed somthing but the MNR is spending 100,000 dollars or more on a fish ladder, that may improve our fishery. This is what our lisence money goes to, so quit complaining your money is safe, a fish ladder that can't lift fish, nohting wrong there......only in Ontario

 

here's a better idea take your liscence renewel and flush it down the toilet same results

Edited February 6, 2011 by canadadude

[wallacio]

 

The intrinsic benefit of a healthy, wild run of steelhead in the Credit far outweighs any possible negative impacts.

 

There are many examples even here in ON where migratory fish co-exist beautifully with wild natives. The upper reaches of the Ganaraska immediately spring to mind.

 

That excuse doesn't fly with me.

 

What's the definition of an eliteist?

 

In this specific case user groups like Trout Unlimited and Izaac Walton represent a FRACTION of the populace. They're having a large say in the goings on, and unfortunately are only lobbying to further their own narrow minded agenda. Personally I call that elitist.

 

(And for what it's worth I'm a fly fisherman)

 

 

 

The UC stakeholders have definitely gone overboard with their tactics however they are attempting to protect a fishery that is unique to Southern Ontario. Protecting this interest is no different or "narrow minded" than the unlimited access Credit Steelhead lobby. There are far more healthy and accessible Steelhead rivers in Ontario than there are good resident Brown fisheries...why POTENTIALLY lower the fishing quality on the UC by allowing migratories up that far? As I've stated previously an electrobarrier well above Norval but below the UC would benefit both groups.

 

It's no surprise that those who support unlimited steelhead access are ones who do not fish the UC on a regular basis...it's easy to brush-off the fishery as trival when one does not utilize it. I can assure you that these feelings are not shared on message boards that actually represent the stakeholders that do use it.

 

I should qualify my statements that I fly fish and I'm also an avid (float-fishing) Steelheader, who actually spends far more time chasing Steel than I do resident Trout. I simply appreciate both equally.

Edited February 6, 2011 by wallacio

[lookinforwalleye]

sorry I may have sounded a little crazy, but still i wonder why the MNR is building a fish ladder and not allowing the fish to be transfered.I thought I may have missed somthing but the MNR is spending 100,000 dollars or more on a fish ladder, that may improve our fishery. This is what our lisence money goes to, so quit complaining your money is safe, a fish ladder that can't lift fish, nohting wrong there......only in Ontario

 

here's a better idea take your liscence renewel and flush it down the toilet same results

 

No you don`t sound crazy not at all!!!

 

I definately aint going near any river!!!