Whats the Difference?

[Marc Thorpe]

Glenn ,well someone has to supervise

That's right,they pay me and work for me,what a great job

 

In most case you get paid to work,in my case they pay me and work for me

 

I think it's a professional wrestling hold!... The Archimedes Nut Crusher!

 

That must hurt

 

makes me think of the Slap Chop that Vince is now selling

watch what I do with these nuts,you"ll love my nuts

 

Chriss is correct ,there are no studies done,just a general consensus of biologist from multiple species including fresh water and salt water that have concluded that horizontal holds are in best interest of sevral fish species

Edited September 3, 2009 by marc thorpe

[Chris]

In ChrisS case he should never wear glasses when holding a fish

 

I heard that!

[Marc Thorpe]

Hey Rhomo you still on

[Chris]

I'd have to catch one to tell how to hold it

 

C'mon out in the boat someday with me and I'll put you onto a few.

 

 

From OMNR

 

• Any fish that is removed from the water and held for a picture or for any other purpose

should be held horizontally, not vertically, to reduce the risk of internal injury (Butler

2004).

 

It's been a few years since I talked to him but last time I checked M. Butler was not a biologist.

[Marc Thorpe]

I prefer the throttle hold but at times an arm bar is a great submission hold

 

 

"C'mon out in the boat someday with me and I'll put you onto a few. "

 

you mean I get a hands on demo from the Legend

Edited September 3, 2009 by marc thorpe

[Fish4Eyes]

I think it should be in the the best interest of the MNR to have some studies composed to verify some of these things. For all we know, it could improve the fishery.

[Chris]

you mean I get a hands on demo from the Legend

 

Legend in my own mind haha! You want me to whittle you a lure?

[Jet]

I really hate seeing when people bash other about holding fish vertically, especially when they take the time to contribute a report. What better way to say "Thank You" especially when they bash someone for holding a fish and not first asking if they kept it. They always seem to assume the worst first. Regardless of who's right, you can educate without bashing.

 

As GCD and others pointed out, people get bent out of shape about fish held vertically, touching the shore, on grass, but ignore the fact we rip hooks through their mouths, often with great force. Let's not forget about the times it gets stuck in the gullet. The whole sport starts by hurting fish, regardless of whether they feel it or not. Since that part cannot be avoided to enjoy fishing then after that mandatory procedure takes place, we owe it to these fish to be as proactive as possible for the well being of the fish when releasing.

 

That said, I think if you apply the golden rule of "Treating others how you want to be treated" is a good rule of thumb when dealing with fish.

 

Do you like to breathe? If you do then get the fish back into the water as quickly as possible.

Do you like to be held by the neck or foot? Perhaps it doesn't hurt fish as much as some might believe, but I'd sure rather be cradled with two hands.

 

Some common sense can go a long way.

[bubbles]

I prefer to put mine on a metal stringer, let it float behind the boat all day, forget about it a few times and drive away, THEN get to the dock for a photo holding it up by the stringer.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Bubbles

[bigfish1965]

Hi Rick, could you please refer to the scientific study that verifies all of this. Thanks!

 

How about three years of fish and wildlife studies at Sir Sandford Fleming School of Natural Resources? Plenty of biologists there...plenty of biology and anatomy classes...The mass of the fish is greatly reduced by the buoyancy. They evolved in that conditon for millions of years.

The same type of thing happens to us when we travel in weightless environments...certain body structures depend on a specific gravity to function properly. Extended time in space leads to many maladies which is why they use gravity simulation exercise equipment. The opposite is also true. If we were placed in an environment where the g forces were consistently higher than what we evolved in, it would cause significant damage and heart failure. Our heart is strong enough to pump blood in a specific set of conditions. There is no need to have a heart that does more. Consequently higher g forces cause us to black out as blood flow to the brain is reduced.

I do not recall the specific g force reduction by water, but it is significant...even more so in salt water.

And Dawg..a fish jumping is different because of the momentum of the fish. All of its parts move at the same speed with the forces equal. It's forward acceleration propels it out and up, until gravity brings it back down. Even when gravity is affecting the fish to fall, its organs are falling at the same rate and keep their relative position.

 

It is more a lesson in physics and anatomy than biology. But common sense also should make most of this obvious.

[Raf]

there have been instances where large fish (muskie) have broken their backs while jumping during a fight vs angler. it can happen & many anglers have started keeping their rod tip low to try to prevent the fish from jumping.

 

lots of things can happen; it is fishn and there will inevitably be some injuries/fatalities but i think the more we can do to educate ourselves and minimize any damage the better. including supporting large fish horizontally.

[MCTFisher9120]

There's the science and the fighting. End it already, if a dozen more anglers go out and catch a pike or a muskie or a bass and give it a little more support and in the water time then that's a plus in my books.

 

We can't chance what we have or have not done, all we can do is lookout for the future instead of living in the past. One thing that needs to stop of the removal of fish slime, don't put fish on grass or dirt or whatever, sometimes a wed dock or a wet boat carpet will eliminate slime removal but their only defense to bacteria is there slime.(at least I think)

 

Let's get all of us to stop posting reports of fish covered in dirt and see more fish being held proudly and clean.

[Chris]

How about three years of fish and wildlife studies at Sir Sandford Fleming School of Natural Resources? Plenty of biologists there...plenty of biology and anatomy classes...The mass of the fish is greatly reduced by the buoyancy. They evolved in that conditon for millions of years.

 

Great! Now can you link us to their study? Thanks!

[Greencoachdog]

The vertical hold can't be that bad eh?

 

http://www.factsoffishing.com/videoblog.php?id=94

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

Great! Now can you link us to their study? Thanks!

 

Study?

Look in a grade 11 physics textbook, or if you want to get fancy, a grade 12 biology textbook!

[danbouck]

I hold them vertical on the stringer, followed by horizontal on the cutting board. At least I'm right half the time!

[Greencoachdog]

there have been instances where large fish (muskie) have broken their backs while jumping during a fight vs angler...Broke Back Musky angling... that explains a lot!!! it can happen & many anglers have started keeping their rod tip low to try to prevent the fish from jumping...they keep their rod tip low to keep the fish from jumping and throwing the hook... I do the same exact thing with Bass!!!

 

lots of things can happen; it is fishn and there will inevitably be some injuries/fatalities but i think the more we can do to educate ourselves and minimize any damage the better. including supporting large fish horizontally... Oh heck yeah!... let's turn them into a giant Ushape!!!

[Raf]

a fine example of ontario's best fishing resource.

[Cookslav]

I think we should all fish with Marshmallows, and loly pops...no need for hooks

The bite is enough of a thrill for me.

Who on earth needs to fight or hold a stinky fish for a picture?

 

I just want to see it swim in the clear water enjoying its natural habitat

And Observe its fragil nature.....

 

Gosh we're a sensitive bunch tonight?

And we're still a month or two away from the prime Stealhead arguments LOL!

 

What if I just don't hold the fish at all, and mearly beach him in the sand, or on the rocks?

Is that ok LOL!

[Marc Thorpe]

"Study?

Look in a grade 11 physics textbook, or if you want to get fancy, a grade 12 biology textbook!"

 

Dr Salvelinus,what Chriss is pointing to and what I replied is there is no study!!!!

 

what Chris is pointing out is Rick O reply "here is the biology of it"

There is no biology of it there is a general consensus amongst biologist from fresh to saltwater that vertical holds can cause damage to the spine and possible internal organs.

Remember not all laws of physics hold true,in this case there is potential injury to miss-handled fish

 

One more things,girthing summer fish ,out of water measurements and restraining fish is just as harmful

 

Let me say this, education is by far the best route to be taken,even with that, I can say fish handling by anglers is not all that great,simply due to lack of handling numbers

 

Like all things,this curve will only get better as education and hands on experience progresses

 

Cookslave,dont worry,they will get over the emotional scaring :0

I did hahahahahahaha

 

 

If you are interested in proper safe handling methods,may I suggest

 

http://www.marcthorpeguiding.com/release.htm

 

be good

I have a date with Big Evil

 

better to be feared than live in fear

[Chris]

Study?

Look in a grade 11 physics textbook, or if you want to get fancy, a grade 12 biology textbook!

 

I typically try to refrain from responding to snide comments from those that have shown themselves in the past to be left-leaning tree-hugger liberal types, but here goes: I checked the gr 11 physics and gr 12 biology books and nowhere did I find any info stating that fish species had large oversized cavernous huge abdominal spaces to house "loosely" arranged organs. In fact I saw something that eluded more to fish being structured very tight and streamlined leaving little room for organs to be displaced. It did not mention anything about abdominal spaces at the rear of the fish where displaced organs could move to.

 

Mr. Salvalinus, there are many scientists and biologists in the world and they all have opinions on things scientific or biological. Many of those opinions differ, some very widely. Take the debate over climate change for a prime example. So their findings need to go thru peer reviews and stuff like that. This is done to prevent speculation from becoming fact. Believe it or not, there is incompetence in every walk of life....there has to be safeguards.

 

There has never been a peer reviewed study done on the effects of holding a fish vertically. For every anecdotal story claiming this hold has negative effects there is a story about the complete opposite. For example, I have pics of a huge 51lb. muskie taken from a body of water that rarely produces fish even close to that size. It was caught during the hot weather, in shallow water, fought for an extended period of time on bass tackle, held both vertically and horizontally for pics with two different guys holding the fish, meaning the fish endured some extended air time. It had very few teeth left and had distinct markings including a deformed fin. It was succesfully released. Many would argue that fish would be dead in a few hours. However, this very old toothless one-finned wonder-fish was re-caught a year later and although seemingly very healthy when re-caught, it unfortunately died because the suick that the guy caught it on was swallowed with the fish's mouth clamped down. The pictures clearly showed it was the same fish. In fact this particular story suggests that the simple act of fishing in the first place is probably more detrimental to fish populations than how you hold the fish. While this doesn't "prove" anything, it certainly debunks claims such as "A vertically held fish is a dead fish". That, BTW, is an actual quote from one of the half dozen or so scientists and biologists that are quoted in the 2004 M. Butler "vertical hold" article that Marc referred to.

 

Doc, you forgot to comment on the possible effects of a hand pushing up into the abdominal cavity and bruising organs during a horizontal hold. You also forgot to comment on the effects a fish might feel after being hooked by a lure travelling at 6mph. BTW, I didn't see anything about those things in the school books either.

 

My suggestion to you and others of your ilk....heed what one of this board's most intelligent and insightful men said. "Hold your fish the way you want and let others hold their fish the way they want."

[bubbles]

Did anyone else thingk ChrisS was kidding?

[MCTFisher9120]

"Hold your fish the way you want and let others hold their fish the way they want."

 

The last line always makes me understand most.

 

I'll keep to this quote!

[Guest gbfisher]

I typically try to refrain from responding to snide comments from those that have shown themselves in the past to be left-leaning tree-hugger liberal types, but here goes: I checked the gr 11 physics and gr 12 biology books and nowhere did I find any info stating that fish species had large oversized cavernous huge abdominal spaces to house "loosely" arranged organs. In fact I saw something that eluded more to fish being structured very tight and streamlined leaving little room for organs to be displaced. It did not mention anything about abdominal spaces at the rear of the fish where displaced organs could move to.

 

Mr. Salvalinus, there are many scientists and biologists in the world and they all have opinions on things scientific or biological. Many of those opinions differ, some very widely. Take the debate over climate change for a prime example. So their findings need to go thru peer reviews and stuff like that. This is done to prevent speculation from becoming fact. Believe it or not, there is incompetence in every walk of life....there has to be safeguards.

 

There has never been a peer reviewed study done on the effects of holding a fish vertically. For every anecdotal story claiming this hold has negative effects there is a story about the complete opposite. For example, I have pics of a huge 51lb. muskie taken from a body of water that rarely produces fish even close to that size. It was caught during the hot weather, in shallow water, fought for an extended period of time on bass tackle, held both vertically and horizontally for pics with two different guys holding the fish, meaning the fish endured some extended air time. It had very few teeth left and had distinct markings including a deformed fin. It was succesfully released. Many would argue that fish would be dead in a few hours. However, this very old toothless one-finned wonder-fish was re-caught a year later and although seemingly very healthy when re-caught, it unfortunately died because the suick that the guy caught it on was swallowed with the fish's mouth clamped down. The pictures clearly showed it was the same fish. In fact this particular story suggests that the simple act of fishing in the first place is probably more detrimental to fish populations than how you hold the fish. While this doesn't "prove" anything, it certainly debunks claims such as "A vertically held fish is a dead fish". That, BTW, is an actual quote from one of the half dozen or so scientists and biologists that are quoted in the 2004 M. Butler "vertical hold" article that Marc referred to.

 

Doc, you forgot to comment on the possible effects of a hand pushing up into the abdominal cavity and bruising organs during a horizontal hold. You also forgot to comment on the effects a fish might feel after being hooked by a lure travelling at 6mph. BTW, I didn't see anything about those things in the school books either.

 

My suggestion to you and others of your ilk....heed what one of this board's most intelligent and insightful men said. "Hold your fish the way you want and let others hold their fish the way they want."

 

. Are ya happy now? Take a breath.

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

I typically try to refrain from responding to snide comments from those that have shown themselves in the past to be left-leaning tree-hugger liberal types

 

I don't even know how to respond to something so stupid.