More land restriction

[Millhouse2020]

This was in the Sudbury Star recently. Not encouraging. People need to speak up about this now before things get out of hand...

 

http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3267621

 

 

[solopaddler]

Before things get out of hand?

 

The existing outpost camps in the area being discussed have been there for generations. The outfitters operate on these remote lakes using age old land use permits issued by the MNR.

 

The MNR hasn't issued any new land use permits in a very very long time.

 

The only "new" development is the ever increasing encroachment of roads making these once inaccessable lakes quite accessable.

 

Every time a new road opens up, locals and otherwise rush in and sooner rather than later the lakes are a shadow of there former selves.

 

If the MNR didn't restrict public access to these once remote fly in lakes the entire industry would be dead.

 

It's already a given that the MNR will not be issuing any new commercial land use permits.

 

For those against this exactly how would you go about protecting the outfitters business? Businesses whose outpost camps have been there long before you were born.

 

Not really just the outfitters business, but an industry and pastime that has seen hundreds of thousands of people enjoy over the last 50 odd years.

 

A way of life that was a big part of how the entire north was shaped.

 

Would you really just idly squash it all because the idea of "restricted access" rubs you the wrong way?

 

As mentioned in the linked article the lakes in this region whose access is restricted comprise 10% of the total lakes.

 

Are you telling me that it's impossible to find any good fishing in the other 90%?

 

Because if you are that's a very compelling statement. You're more or less saying that all of the non restricted lakes suck in comparison.

 

Is that the case?

 

I know for a fact it's not, there are tons of great lakes available to be enjoyed and used by everyone.

 

Personally I want my kids and grandkids to be able to enjoy a quality fly in experience without having to drive 15-18 hours to jump off points further north.

 

Why can't the people upset with these laws be content with the other 90% of the lakes in the region?

 

Articles like this are nothing but inflamatory imo. Read at face value by the easily riled masses of course people will be against restricted access.

 

This is no doubt an inflammatory issue.

 

I have no desire to get into a internet debate on this topic once again. I just wanted to express another viewpoint.

[Terry]

I still don't know what to think

 

I can somewhat see both sides of the coin

 

but I can say that I had been going to a lake by atv north of sudbury for years

 

it was a real hard run so very few people made the trip and the lake was great

 

by mistake( so they say) a new logging road was cut too close to a lake along the path I took..so they closed it to all motorized vehicles and now I can no longer get to my lake

 

that's the main reason I quit going to the shiningtree area...

[mercman]

I think that much of the population feels helpless in the face of government issues regarding natural resources, and the reaction to this news is more of a panic response than anything else.

 

 

 

 

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

When challenges or competition face OTHER businesses, they must adapt or fail...Sink or swim...

 

If they MNR wished for these lakes to remain remote, they shouldn't have issued forestry permits to harvest within such short distances. Look on google earth at how close the clearcuts come to some of the lakes north of white river.

 

I'd like to add that this isn't just about road closures involving remote tourism. They are also arbitrarily closing roads that don't support any form of remote tourism. For example, a few roads have been closed at my camp in the last fall. The MNR pulled the culverts then bulldozed a 10 foot high pile of gravel at the trailhead. One of these trails is a 7km long dead end that was the most productive grouse trail in the area, an the other leads to 2 small brook trout lakes (moderate pressure).

 

It's Bull and pressure on the government is growing. Hopefully in a few years Ontora will have the money they require to challenge the MNR in court.

 

www.ontora.ca

Edited August 23, 2011 by Dr. Salvelinus

[solopaddler]

When challenges or competition face OTHER businesses, they must adapt or fail...Sink or swim...

 

As mentioned the land use permits the outfitters are using are old. These camps have been in existence for eons. There is no way for them to adapt.

 

It's either a public free for all and the death of the fly in industry in that region or restricted public access. Plain and simple.

 

 

 

I'd like to add that this isn't just about road closures involving remote tourism. They are also arbitrarily closing roads that don't support any form of remote tourism. For example, a few roads have been closed at my camp in the last fall. The MNR pulled the culverts then bulldozed a 10 foot high pile of gravel at the trailhead. One of these trails is a 7km long dead end that was the most productive grouse trail in the area, an the other leads to 2 small brook trout lakes (moderate pressure).

 

 

I can say that I had been going to a lake by atv north of sudbury for years

 

it was a real hard run so very few people made the trip and the lake was great

 

by mistake( so they say) a new logging road was cut too close to a lake along the path I took..so they closed it to all motorized vehicles and now I can no longer get to my lake

 

that's the main reason I quit going to the shiningtree area...

 

Well these two examples are completely different issues then aren't they?

 

I can personally understand and fully endorse MNR access restrictions on existing fly in lakes.

 

But to arbitrarily restrict access to sportsmen to otherwise unused crown land is a joke.

 

By all means attack the MNR with full guns blazing.

 

Unfortunately this issue is not at the forefront. It seems for whatever misguided reasons access to the fly in lakes is what people are up in arms about.

[Terry]

well it's nothing like the other issue.......

 

except closed access to all but fly-ins

[walleyejigger]

I was at the rally in the article, unfortunately the press didn't get the whole issue, the reason we accessed this lake was in support of the local trapper, he'd had that line since before the outfitter was on the lake, few years back he received a letter that if he chose to continue his trapping he would have to do so by foot,

The mnr then went in and cut about 50 trees down onto his trail so he couldn't use it, his trail was then deemed decommissioned, some of these trees were giant white pines,

 

So Saturday we went in with chainsaws and worked over 2 hours to clear his trail and subsequently access the lake so he can set his STILL LICENCED trap line, we went in with firwood permits and hauled all the wood out,

 

We were ambushed in the bush by 8 mnr officers and 2 opp officers, we were each questioned extensively with video cameras in our face, then there were another 5 mnr officers and 1 opp officer waiting on the lake, they said they would not lay charges that day as there were too many of us, they one year to formally charge us,

 

The only person to physically access the lake that day was the trapper, the rest of us waited on shore for him, mnr proceded to tell us that we were in violation as we accessed the lake with our eyes and cameras

 

I can go on and on but you really have to experience it to believe it, a real shame

 

I'm all for outfitters, but to treat them differently than you or I is unacceptable, I am an Ontario born citizen and pay my taxes like the next person, I am not a second class citizen

 

Btw, anybody with a plane is free to access thes lakes, not just outfitters, I guess money talks, and the average person walks,

Edited August 24, 2011 by walleyejigger

[irishfield]

Btw, anybody with a plane is free to access thes lakes, not just outfitters, I guess money talks, and the average person walks,

 

I take some offence to the last sentence.. as I have less money in my airplane (that I built with me own two hands) than many here have in their boats.

 

It also isn't true.. .we got screwed in Temagami, one draft of the Smoothwater/Lady Evelyn Park was presented and debated/agreed upon and then another was printed and stuffed thru the gazette to become law. You can PAY Lakeland Airways to fly you and your canoe into the park, but I can't fly my own wife and her canoe in and drop her off. I'm doing so anyhow....

[walleyejigger]

Sorry by the last one not meant to offend, but I think you get what I mean, maybe different cause it's in a park or maybe just special circumstance for that lake, but we were arrogantly told by the mnr if we wanted to fish there to buy our own plane and we could do what we wanted,

 

I'm glad you're bringing ur wife in anyhow, it's discrimination plain and simple

 

Sorry again

[Blue Lk]

I am a lifetime resident of Ontario,spent my whole life in this area & will fish where I like,it is public land & should not be limited to some elite sportsmem from another country.

The tourist industry is a shrinking industry,if the flyin operatorers suffer so be it,there are plenty of drive to resorts that are suffering as well.

The roads that are being closed were built with our tax dollars,the lakes in this area are still very hard to access,if the flyin customer is upset because a local taxpaying fisherman has worked hard to gain access to these lakes,toooo bad,he can kiss my taxpaying ass.

[Grimace]

I am a lifetime resident of Ontario,spent my whole life in this area & will fish where I like,it is public land & should not be limited to some elite sportsmem from another country.

The tourist industry is a shrinking industry,if the flyin operatorers suffer so be it,there are plenty of drive to resorts that are suffering as well.

The roads that are being closed were built with our tax dollars,the lakes in this area are still very hard to access,if the flyin customer is upset because a local taxpaying fisherman has worked hard to gain access to these lakes,toooo bad,he can kiss my taxpaying ass.

 

Hear, hear

[Dara]

As mentioned the land use permits the outfitters are using are old. These camps have been in existence for eons. There is no way for them to adapt.

 

It's either a public free for all and the death of the fly in industry in that region or restricted public access. Plain and simple.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well these two examples are completely different issues then aren't they?

 

I can personally understand and fully endorse MNR access restrictions on existing fly in lakes.

 

But to arbitrarily restrict access to sportsmen to otherwise unused crown land is a joke.

 

By all means attack the MNR with full guns blazing.

 

Unfortunately this issue is not at the forefront. It seems for whatever misguided reasons access to the fly in lakes is what people are up in arms about.

 

 

None of us have ever complained about access to

'fly in lakes"

we are complaining about newly restricted access to lakes and roads we have used for years

 

If you want to restrict access and relieve pressure on lakes, make non-residents be required to use an outfitter to use our land...it wouldn'r be the first province to do it

Edited August 24, 2011 by Dara

[solopaddler]

I was at the rally in the article, unfortunately the press didn't get the whole issue, the reason we accessed this lake was in support of the local trapper, he'd had that line since before the outfitter was on the lake, few years back he received a letter that if he chose to continue his trapping he would have to do so by foot,

The mnr then went in and cut about 50 trees down onto his trail so he couldn't use it, his trail was then deemed decommissioned, some of these trees were giant white pines,

 

So Saturday we went in with chainsaws and worked over 2 hours to clear his trail and subsequently access the lake so he can set his STILL LICENCED trap line, we went in with firwood permits and hauled all the wood out,

 

We were ambushed in the bush by 8 mnr officers and 2 opp officers, we were each questioned extensively with video cameras in our face, then there were another 5 mnr officers and 1 opp officer waiting on the lake, they said they would not lay charges that day as there were too many of us, they one year to formally charge us,

 

The only person to physically access the lake that day was the trapper, the rest of us waited on shore for him, mnr proceded to tell us that we were in violation as we accessed the lake with our eyes and cameras

 

I can go on and on but you really have to experience it to believe it, a real shame

 

 

That is beyond riduculous. It's no wonder people are up in arms.

 

I'm all for outfitters, but to treat them differently than you or I is unacceptable, I am an Ontario born citizen and pay my taxes like the next person, I am not a second class citizen

 

So I take it you're one of the people who feel they can't catch fish in the other 90% of lakes that can be legally accessed?

 

 

 

I am a lifetime resident of Ontario,spent my whole life in this area & will fish where I like,it is public land & should not be limited to some elite sportsmem from another country.

The tourist industry is a shrinking industry,if the flyin operatorers suffer so be it,there are plenty of drive to resorts that are suffering as well.

The roads that are being closed were built with our tax dollars,the lakes in this area are still very hard to access,if the flyin customer is upset because a local taxpaying fisherman has worked hard to gain access to these lakes,toooo bad,he can kiss my taxpaying ass.

 

 

I'm a lifetime resident of Ontario too. I've spent my entire adult life tripping through the north. Mostly by canoe, but many times flying into outpost camps.

 

I have never had any problems accessing great waters without breaking any laws.

 

Again, I have to wonder why so many of you guys who live up there feel the need to fish the 10% of lakes that have access restrictions?

 

Is it, could it be, that the fishing is better?

 

I just can't fathom why anyone would want to decimate an entire industry and form of recreation. One that's been an intrinsic part of shaping the north and enjoyed by many. Certainly not solely by, as you put it, "elite sportsmen from another country".

 

 

None of us have ever complained about access to

'fly in lakes"

we are complaining about newly restricted access to lakes and roads we have used for years

 

Really Dara? Have you read some of the other comments in this thread?

Did you read the link the original poster provided? It was ALL about the outfitters, hence my reply which you quoted.

 

I'm with you 150% if you're talking new restrictions on traditional access roads.

 

 

If you want to restrict access and relieve pressure on lakes, make non-residents be required to use an outfitter to use our land...it wouldn'r be the first province to do it

 

Those types of restrictions were never meant to protect lakes. They were put in place to enhance tourism and boost the local economy which is precisely what the MNR is attempting to do here.

 

Hate to say it, but if anyone is putting pressure on the lakes up there, dollars to doughnuts it's meat hunting locals.

Edited August 24, 2011 by solopaddler

[walleyejigger]

I can only speak for this " meat hunting local" as you call it,

 

Int experience you r incorrect, I've only started fishing these no access lakes for about 5 years, ever since I heard about these laws, it was for the sole purpose of " ur not going to tell me where I can and cannot go" in my experience slot of these lakes are worst for fishing than most in the north ( unless u like catching countless hammer handles a a good nber of tiny pickerel). Although I have hit some great ones

 

Unfortunately I think u missed the point again and are making ur own conclusions on our thoughts

 

I'm sure you know to access these lakes is not an easy feat, if I was out for the purpose of meat hunting there are easy and more often than not better lakes to fish, our acts of civil disobedience is nothing more than trying to being the issue to the forefront, because is gettingworse and worse as the days go by,

 

Sorry for the spelling, my fat fingers on an iPod don't mix well

[walleyejigger]

Also most may not realize that these lakes/ roads/ trails are not just off limits for the fisherman

 

The are off limits to all fisherman hunters, atvers, berry pickers, photographers, etc.

 

Any access of these areas by motorized vehicle( except plane) is prohibited, even though u may never be anywhere near the lake in question, sometimes up to 50 kms away

[Blue Lk]

As another so called "meat hunting local",I would like to add that I rarely keep my limit,I only take home what I plan to eat that day,I keep no fish in my freezer.

I mainly fish so-called remote lakes & actually have not been on MNR restricted lakes for a couple of years.

What bothers me is that MNR is telling me I cannot access a public lake on public land by a road built with public dollars.

 

In bussiness sometimes "it happens",the family gas station looses out when a major hwy is bypassed,the "mom & pop" stores suffer when a big chain moves into an area.

IMO this is no different than a few locals accessing a remote lake & pissing off some tourists who think they can buy exclusive rights to a public lake.

[solopaddler]

I can only speak for this " meat hunting local" as you call it,

 

Int experience you r incorrect, I've only started fishing these no access lakes for about 5 years, ever since I heard about these laws, it was for the sole purpose of " ur not going to tell me where I can and cannot go" in my experience slot of these lakes are worst for fishing than most in the north ( unless u like catching countless hammer handles a a good nber of tiny pickerel). Although I have hit some great ones

 

Unfortunately I think u missed the point again and are making ur own conclusions on our thoughts

 

I'm sure you know to access these lakes is not an easy feat, if I was out for the purpose of meat hunting there are easy and more often than not better lakes to fish, our acts of civil disobedience is nothing more than trying to being the issue to the forefront, because is gettingworse and worse as the days go by,

 

Sorry for the spelling, my fat fingers on an iPod don't mix well

 

I'm certainly not missing any point here.

 

Your reason for flaunting the law seems reactionary and pointless.

 

As I've already stated I'm with you 100% when it comes to restriction bans on traditional access points.

 

Even if northerners don't use the services of a fly in operator (and by and large they don't and never will) I can't fathom why anyone would be glad to see the death of an entire industry and way of life all in the name of "I'm a taxpayer, it's my right".

 

An industry that brings precious tourism dollars to the region year after year.

 

Another point, many of these roads are private roads with public access built by the logging companies. Not a dime of anyone's precious taxes went into their construction.

 

Living in Chelmsford, how would you feel if for whatever reason E.B. Eddy decided for liability reasons the Sultan road was now closed to the public?

 

How would the outfitters in Bisco fare and feel about the situation?

 

As far as the impact that locals have, including people with private planes on newly opened lakes, I highly recommend you find a copy of George Therriault's "Trespassing In Gods Country".

 

I'm sure you'll find it a fascinating read considering it's written mostly about your region by one of it's longest standing fly in operators.

 

 

Also most may not realize that these lakes/ roads/ trails are not just off limits for the fisherman

 

The are off limits to all fisherman hunters, atvers, berry pickers, photographers, etc.

 

Any access of these areas by motorized vehicle( except plane) is prohibited, even though u may never be anywhere near the lake in question, sometimes up to 50 kms away

 

Well, that's not exactly true. There's plenty of access roads that are fully open to the public with signage indicating specific lakes cannot be accessed using the road.

 

Lots of misinformation on both sides it seems.

Edited August 24, 2011 by solopaddler

[solopaddler]

As another so called "meat hunting local",I would like to add that I rarely keep my limit,I only take home what I plan to eat that day,I keep no fish in my freezer.

I mainly fish so-called remote lakes & actually have not been on MNR restricted lakes for a couple of years.

What bothers me is that MNR is telling me I cannot access a public lake on public land by a road built with public dollars.

 

In bussiness sometimes "it happens",the family gas station looses out when a major hwy is bypassed,the "mom & pop" stores suffer when a big chain moves into an area.

IMO this is no different than a few locals accessing a remote lake & pissing off some tourists who think they can buy exclusive rights to a public lake.

 

 

What gets me, you're located in NWO. If anyone has no need to use restricted roads it's you.

 

There's practically more water than land up there and finding great waters to fish is pretty easy wouldn't you agree?

 

NWO is a far cry from the Chapleau, Folyet, Wawa, Timmins area. Which is more or less the area being discussed in the linked article.

[walleyejigger]

You are right in that some roads are still open for public access for other use, but not all including the one we used, closed, period, no ifs ands or buts,

 

Sultan road IS closed for access to the tourism lakes ( rice,rush,pebonishewi etc.) which means to legally access these areas I must parc at the watershed stop, and walk or bicycle in.

 

Again outfitters are not the issue, the government giving exclusive rights to the outfitter is the issue, why can't we co-exist, without these rules I for one would not be fishing these lakes,

 

This is the beginning of our recreational rights being stripped away from slowly but surely, if they pass the rules they are proposing for the wars area (see roy's link in another thread) there will be a buffer zone of 2 miles around these lakes that you will not be allowed to access,

 

This is just the beginning folks, open your eyes before it's too late and your vacation to the north is a thing of the past

[walleyejigger]

Sorry can't figure out how to edit on this darn iPod, by wars area I meant wawa lol

[Dara]

That is beyond riduculous. It's no wonder people are up in arms.

 

 

 

So I take it you're one of the people who feel they can't catch fish in the other 90% of lakes that can be legally accessed?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a lifetime resident of Ontario too. I've spent my entire adult life tripping through the north. Mostly by canoe, but many times flying into outpost camps.

 

I have never had any problems accessing great waters without breaking any laws.

 

Again, I have to wonder why so many of you guys who live up there feel the need to fish the 10% of lakes that have access restrictions?

 

Is it, could it be, that the fishing is better?

 

I just can't fathom why anyone would want to decimate an entire industry and form of recreation. One that's been an intrinsic part of shaping the north and enjoyed by many. Certainly not solely by, as you put it, "elite sportsmen from another country".

 

 

 

 

Really Dara? Have you read some of the other comments in this thread?

Did you read the link the original poster provided? It was ALL about the outfitters, hence my reply which you quoted.

 

I'm with you 150% if you're talking new restrictions on traditional access roads.

 

 

 

 

Those types of restrictions were never meant to protect lakes. They were put in place to enhance tourism and boost the local economy which is precisely what the MNR is attempting to do here.

 

Hate to say it, but if anyone is putting pressure on the lakes up there, dollars to doughnuts it's meat hunting locals.

 

 

So you trek all over northern Ontario but you live in the south.

You can't understand from down there...same as the rule maker can't understand from down there. They got a bunch of whineing outfitters on their case when they screwed up on the spring bear hunt and have been trying to appease them ever since. To cover it they are restricting access to many places. As Dr said, they are ripping culverts out on 38 road and McDonald creek road and closing it. There isn't a fly in lake or outfitter lake within 100 miles of that area. Actually it is mostly ACR land of which the ACR was handed 100 years ago to build a railway. That was all free range land with ACR leases for cabins till 10 years ago when they sold off a few hundred thousand acres and it has now been all but closed to public access and the people driven from their cabins. The Ontario government is making a mess of the north because of a few special interest groups. Many industries have been decimated by progress and many by government intervention as well.

 

We don't care that the outfitters have the best lakes....we want unrestricted access to ALL public land, otherwise, it isn't public land...it is private.

 

There is no difference between accessing a lake by ATV, train, truck or plane...you don't pedal a plane...they have motors too.

 

The difference is some people think that the good lakes should be either difficult or expensive.

 

And, if the MNR wanted to boost tourism they wouldn't send the cops sneaking in to a lake to harrass the people paying big bucks to use it.

I know 8 German tourists that were shown by a CO that when you measure a walleye you gotta squeeze the tail to get an extra quater inch out of it and that my dear tourist is gonna cost you a hundred and fifty bucks on thop of the 5 hundred you already spent on licences at this lodge you just paid a thousand dollars to stay at this weekend

Edited August 24, 2011 by Dara

[solopaddler]

You are right in that some roads are still open for public access for other use, but not all including the one we used, closed, period, no ifs ands or buts,

 

Sultan road IS closed for access to the tourism lakes ( rice,rush,pebonishewi etc.) which means to legally access these areas I must parc at the watershed stop, and walk or bicycle in.

 

Again outfitters are not the issue, the government giving exclusive rights to the outfitter is the issue, why can't we co-exist, without these rules I for one would not be fishing these lakes,

 

This is the beginning of our recreational rights being stripped away from slowly but surely, if they pass the rules they are proposing for the wars area (see roy's link in another thread) there will be a buffer zone of 2 miles around these lakes that you will not be allowed to access,

 

This is just the beginning folks, open your eyes before it's too late and your vacation to the north is a thing of the past

 

Sultan isn't closed to all the lakes. Obviously Biscotasing and Ramsey are accessable as well as scores of other smaller lakes. The fly in lakes have restricted access which has been noted is a good thing.

 

Never mind access to the lakes anyway, what if they simply closed the road to anyone using it?

 

I saved a lot of time using the Sultan road last week enroute to Chapleau. Anyone who currently uses that road is doing so out of E.B. Eddy's generosity.

 

We obviously have two completely different outlooks here because I see most (not all, but most) of these restrictions as a good.

 

They're protecting a resource, one which I enjoy using. They'll make me more inclined to head up north on vacation, not less inclined.

[irishfield]

There is no difference between accessing a lake by ATV, train, truck or plane...you don't pedal a plane...they have motors too.

 

 

 

Says you! (Sorry.. couldn't resist)

 

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/T9CRRabjxzU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Dara]

Says you! (Sorry.. couldn't resist)

 

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/T9CRRabjxzU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

 

And that my friend is how the outfitters should have to access the lakes too