Joeytier Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 I wonder what kind of response a 'Contents of One Bait Shops Minnow Tank' would garner.
Jonny Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Here are a couple more photos... I'm sure the MNR will continue to "study" the problem until our sport fish stocks are truly decimated.
Jonny Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Theses birds run deep on the rainy lake. Never seen anything like it before, the sky goes from sunny to almost clear black for almost an hour, musta been 10 million birds. You'd see chunks of them break off and hit every little spot in each bay, even fighting with the pelicans. You got any photos of this, Manitou?
manitoubass2 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 You got any photos of this, Manitou? No, but I wish I did. It was insane. I've never seen anything like it. Me and two buddies were heading up to the north arm, where his cabin is, and for the first night we just set up a tent on on island 1/4 mile away, just BBQ'd and had some beers. That was the evening it happened, and most of our gear was at the cabin, including our cameras. I'm not sure if that was common occurance, or just one certain day, but it was very crazy
Gregoire Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 The worst overpopulation this planet has ever seen is us Humans...When animal populations get out of whack its usually because of us....Hmmmmm. I've got to agree with that point. We can blame animals all we want, but if we as humans do not change the way we behave it won't make a lick of difference. Think about it, should we blame the animals who act on instinct or should we realize that we are the only species that can make logical decions and use reason (some of us anyway).
Jonny Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 I've got to agree with that point. We can blame animals all we want, but if we as humans do not change the way we behave it won't make a lick of difference. Think about it, should we blame the animals who act on instinct or should we realize that we are the only species that can make logical decions and use reason (some of us anyway). That starts to tread on philosophical ground, but the fact is that we humans like to arrange things to suit ourselves. As far as animal life is concerned we like to control populations of creatures that we find a nuisance. Think as basic as mosquitoes which carry malaria, and insects and animals that destroy crops. I'm not suggesting that the thought in previous posts has gone this far, but should we feel guilty about that?
Jonny Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 No, but I wish I did. It was insane. I've never seen anything like it. Maybe someone does. I thought it was bad when I was able to count flocks of about 1000 to 1500 on Nipissing. What you describe would be simply outrageous.
manitoubass2 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Maybe someone does. I thought it was bad when I was able to count flocks of about 1000 to 1500 on Nipissing. What you describe would be simply outrageous. I'm sure someone does, there was 50-60 other boats in the area, being it was around the end of july it gets pretty busy. I'm not 100% sure, but my buddie that owned the cabin said that happens quite often, they all spread out to feed, then in the evenings they all migrate back to the cascades at the very north end
Gregoire Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 That starts to tread on philosophical ground, but the fact is that we humans like to arrange things to suit ourselves. As far as animal life is concerned we like to control populations of creatures that we find a nuisance. Think as basic as mosquitoes which carry malaria, and insects and animals that destroy crops. I'm not suggesting that the thought in previous posts has gone this far, but should we feel guilty about that? Are you comparing Mosquitoes to Cormorants? As far as I know cormorants do not directly spread disease or illness to humans. It seems like you are the one trying to have a philisophical discussion. I was just stating an opinion. A month or so ago we had a similar thread, all we seem to be doing is rehashing old debates.
Jonny Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Are you comparing Mosquitoes to Cormorants? I certainly am. Like I said, we like to control species that we find a nuisance. That applies to mosquitoes, cormorants and any number of other species. It seems like you are the one trying to have a philisophical discussion. I was just stating an opinion. No problem. But when you state such an opinion, you're on philosophical ground as well as just factual. A month or so ago we had a similar thread, all we seem to be doing is rehashing old debates. I wasn't reading these threads a month ago. It seems to me that threads with this kind of issue will keep coming up from time to time, as long as an issue is not resolved. Are you suggesting that, since there has already been some discussion in the past, we should now simply ignore the problem and not talk about it any more?
ehg Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Ohh... i misread title. Thought it said contents of Chronzey's stomach http://www.ofncommunity.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50826&st=20
Gregoire Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 I certainly am. Like I said, we like to control species that we find a nuisance. That applies to mosquitoes, cormorants and any number of other species. It is obvious that we have differences of opinions on this topic. Since you seem to be looking to engage in a conversation I am willing. I think that there is a huge difference between culling a nuissance species that does little to no direct harm to humans and controlling a species that threatend the health and well being of humans. I understand your point that we, as humans, like to control these species, but I would hope that being intelligent creatures we can agree that there is a huge difference here. No problem. But when you state such an opinion, you're on philosophical ground as well as just factual I do not remember stating or quoting any facts in my resposes. I did state opinions and they can be the basis of philosophical theories. At no point was I looking to engage in a philosophical debate. I wasn't reading these threads a month ago. here is a link to the precious thread: http://www.ofncommunity.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48414&hl=cormorants&st=0
Jonny Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 It is obvious that we have differences of opinions on this topic. Nothing major, I wouldn't think. Of course there is a difference in how and why we treat the mosquito problem and how and why we treat the cormorant problem (thought the fact remains that they are both good examples of how we like to manage problems). Maybe a better analogy would be locusts in a farmer's grain field. The farmer wants the grain for his own uses but the locusts will eat it all up if they get the chance. Does it make sense for the farmer to do all he can to control the depredations of the locusts? I do not remember stating or quoting any facts in my resposes. I did state opinions and they can be the basis of philosophical theories. At no point was I looking to engage in a philosophical debate. I took "we are the only species that can make logical decisions and use reason" as a statement of fact. I can appreciate you weren't trying to get philosophical, if you say so. I think I was merely pointing out that it could go that way. here is a link to the precious thread: http://www.ofncommun...cormorants&st=0 Thanks. Is everything in this thread a simple repetition of what's in that one? I'll have a look...
JohnF Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 that said, controlling them in this way does nothing for them. it would be better to allow nature to do so, and let their population naturally collapse. if you suppress the population, they'll just keep trying to flourish. if nature suppresses them, it may be a much longer term solution. Great point. Is it possible that these random gun kills only act as culls to in fact strengthen the species? Let them thrive for a few years and they'll starve themselves out by cutting their natural forage supply, or kill each other with the stench. JF
jedimaster Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 They did a shoot on Opeongo some years ago, the problem is after about 5 shots from each of the shooters they all flew away and scattered to other islands and parts of the park they weren't at before. Sounds like a job for a 9mm with a silencer.
mercman Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Should teach the suckers to eat snakehead and goby.
Jonny Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Great point. Is it possible that these random gun kills only act as culls to in fact strengthen the species? Let them thrive for a few years and they'll starve themselves out by cutting their natural forage supply, or kill each other with the stench. Normally that would be the way to go - let a natural cycle take care of things. But somehow the cormorant population is exploding and there's a chance that by the time a natural balance re-asserts itself, there will have been so much damage to fisheries and to some areas of habitat (i.e. picturesque islands) that you and I will never live to see an upswing. Regardless, if the reports of these huge flocks that darken the sky are accurate, we've already missed the chance to control the situation. While people have been sitting on their hands wondering whether things should be done, the time to do them is probably already past.
jedimaster Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Interesting Links.... http://www.zoocheck.com/cormorant/ http://www.muskiescanada.ca/articles/cormorants.php
Guest ThisPlaceSucks Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Normally that would be the way to go - let a natural cycle take care of things. But somehow the cormorant population is exploding and there's a chance that by the time a natural balance re-asserts itself, there will have been so much damage to fisheries and to some areas of habitat (i.e. picturesque islands) that you and I will never live to see an upswing. Regardless, if the reports of these huge flocks that darken the sky are accurate, we've already missed the chance to control the situation. While people have been sitting on their hands wondering whether things should be done, the time to do them is probably already past. There is no exception to natures law. Fecundity, mortality, food abundance etc. are limiting factors for any species including us. Any species expanding their range will experience a population explosion. This is high school level population dynamics. I don't mean to simplify a complex problem like this, but suggesting their population growth is limitless or "we're too late" is hogwash! Edited February 11, 2011 by Dr. Salvelinus
Guest ThisPlaceSucks Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Interesting Links.... http://www.zoocheck.com/cormorant/ http://www.muskiescanada.ca/articles/cormorants.php http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/wildlife/factsheets/fs_cormorants-e.html
manitoubass2 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Normally that would be the way to go - let a natural cycle take care of things. But somehow the cormorant population is exploding and there's a chance that by the time a natural balance re-asserts itself, there will have been so much damage to fisheries and to some areas of habitat (i.e. picturesque islands) that you and I will never live to see an upswing. Regardless, if the reports of these huge flocks that darken the sky are accurate, we've already missed the chance to control the situation. While people have been sitting on their hands wondering whether things should be done, the time to do them is probably already past. This was years ago on Rainy Lake. I was just having coffee with a rainy lake lodge owner and he told me it's reduced drastically the past couple years without intervention. However, he did say that for 2-3 years it really damaged the fishery, to the point where many of his guest were no longer returning (at the time). And Rainy Lake is a huge lake, so thats can speaks volumes for how many of these birds frequented that lake, just like I witnessed.
jedimaster Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 I don't mean to simplify a complex problem like this, but suggesting their population growth is limitless or "we're too late" is hogwash! Bang on, the cormorants will boom, fish will die, cormorant population will drop along with other animals in the area that cormants prey on in the area they have decimated. EG, sportfish, Loons, Osprey etc...not to mention fishermen... As far as I know the only species that will completely wipe out a natural resource without finding natural balance are Humans and Virii.
manitoubass2 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Has anyone else witnessed massive flocks of these birds? I wish I could have filmed it, as much as I hate them, it was quite neat to see their brutal dominance of the water. There was an obvious pattern, following pelicans into small bays or shorelines, then plucking fish from the water, as well as the pelicans. Then the pelicans flew to the next spot, and repeat this cycle over and over
Jonny Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 I don't mean to simplify a complex problem like this, but suggesting their population growth is limitless or "we're too late" is hogwash! I didn't say their population growth is limitless. What I said was that by the time the population crashes there will probably have been a huge amount of damage. As far as "we're too late", I am willing to say you might be quite right. Maybe there never was anything we could do about it. But we certainly have affected the natural process in other places : carrier pigeons, bison, whales, etc. etc. etc. Maybe there never was anything we could do about cormorants because... well... who would ever eat one?!
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