Rainbows vs steelhead

[troutologist]

It was my way of thinking that browns were a true trout despite the being in the genus Salmo.

 

The way fish are arranged into the genera Salmo and Oncorhynchus are based on evolutionary similarity to common ancestors.

[Dutchy]

Taxonomically speaking, is there really such a thing as a trout?? Any wildlife biologists want to chip in?

 

Sort of. Oncorhynchus. Its a terminal node. But Coho and everything else, cutthroat trout all fall under it too. They are all Salmonidae.

 

Origin of many fish is tough to figure out for example:

 

"Main conclusions Using mtDNA and nuclear DNA analysis it was concluded, that the Adriatic 'sea trout' belong to species S. trutta and is most likely derived from hatchery-reared brown trout population."

 

If anyone is really interested in rainbows, read this: http://www.isu.edu/~keelerne/fr10parkinson.pdf Conserving Genetic Diversity in Rainbow Trout

Edited March 4, 2010 by Dutchy

[aniceguy]

Dutchy thanks for that link are you in a genetics lab out that way, if so I have some work for ya....., Im sitting here on the fence on this one maybe have another beer too while im at it.

 

but clofchik I copied your text in different sizes so its defined

 

I don't know if you haven't had the first coffee in the morning, if you've drunk some funny tasting Kool-Aid, or the rabies from the wolf bite has moved to it's final stage and your brains are slowly being broiled in a fevered delerium.

To get the level of Atlantics in St.Mary's on one river would need the complete elimination of every other fishery in Lake O. No chinooks, no steelhead, no browns, no lakers, nothing. All to get 40,000 stocking dependent Atlantics in one river system.

Do you have proof to support that comment???????

 

Atlantics spawning successfully in the Great Lakes is nil.

Successful adult returns for fish stocked as fry & smolts is nil.

The only returning adults in any fishable numbers were stocked as yearlings.

The amount of resources it takes to collect, hatch, feed & raise an Atlantic is exponential compared to every other specie currently being stocked.

 

Again so this doesn’t go down some wayward path your proof on the matter above was?????

Swim up fry have been evidenced. Please fish the upper Credit and the Atlantic Parr are like vermin they are so plentiful and some financial numbers to back up the latter would be very interesting to see also the vast majority of resources are from free volenteers, OFAH and funding from Australia

 

 

To get a St.Mary's size of run just in the Credit, would mean an end to every other MNR stocking program on Lake Ontario, for a relatively small off season river fishery, a negligible offshore boat fishery, and a lot of empty water.

 

 

Honestly where are you getting this information, as its about as false as a cubic zerconia again some proof on that would be an interesting read as well and who’s money is it thats financing that yearling production or the entire program in fact. I will beg to differ as your napkin must have had some beer spilled on it… actual cost is a fraction, and again its not your money or mine but a third parties for the vast majority and leveraged in kind work

 

One needs to digress and look back to how long it took to get the chinook program off the ground, here in Lake O. Like the Atlantics hate the Atlantics regardless sit back all of you and think about how that animal is/can be or might be parlayed to get other work done that might not have been done without its presence or addition to SARA the species at risk legislation.

 

Need an example, Norval dam has been in the process of getting a new fish bypass since it ceased to operate 20 yrs ago, no where close any program currently could have made that happen in any measurable time frame. Atlantics knock on the door and thank you salar a ladder is in the final stages of approval and is scheduled for construction this summer and sooner or later other species will have the opportunity to use it, thats one single example I could think of about 20 sitting here.

 

The various FMP's being written as we speak how are salar opening doors to habitat?

Species at Risk funding to do riperian work( money that never would come to any other program ) thanks Mr salar, I can continue to the Atlantic haters what other benefits they are and could potentially hold and lets not talk about the fishery in it, Im only talking the potential millions in a pot to do some great habitat work and who benefits all those other cold water salmonids.

 

Can someone please demonstrate 1 single negative impact the Salar program has had on the Lake Ontario Fishery.....

Edited March 5, 2010 by aniceguy

[John Bacon]

Taxonomically speaking, is there really such a thing as a trout?? Any wildlife biologists want to chip in?

 

I agree; but I think the same can be said for the terms char and salmon as well.

 

p.s. I always find it interesting that Brook Trout, Lake Trout, Bull Trout, Dolly Varden Trout, and Artic Char are all members of one genus and everybody keeps saying that the four trout members are really char rather than referring to the one char member as a trout. Wouldn't in make more sense to say that an arctic char is really a trout?

[CLofchik]

The fact is its just not the steelhead that are introduced species! all the salmon species are as well, like the chinooks, cohos and pinks. But most were introduced to help solve another problem

 

Then you should know that Atlantics are not native to Lake Huron, they're an introduced species.

And rainbows were introduced & naturalized long before Pacific Salmon were stocked.

 

Yes they are now part of the Pacific Salmon family... Their name in latin is Oncorhynchus mykiss, with Oncorhynchus being the begining of all salmon latin names.

 

What he said.

 

Again so this doesn’t go down some wayward path your proof on the matter above was?????

Swim up fry have been evidenced. Please fish the upper Credit and the Atlantic Parr are like vermin they are so plentiful and some financial numbers to back up the latter would be very interesting to see also the vast majority of resources are from free volenteers, OFAH and funding from Australia

 

Well gee, it's not surprising that immature Atlantics are found like vermin where they are stocked.

1) How many Atlantics have been stocked in the Credit?

2) How many returning fish have been captured?

 

That really should be the end of it. Stocking fry & smolts doesn't work and has been a complete and total waste everywhere it's been done.

 

Honestly where are you getting this information, as its about as false as a cubic zerconia again some proof on that would be an interesting read as well and who’s money is it thats financing that yearling production or the entire program in fact. I will beg to differ as your napkin must have had some beer spilled on it… actual cost is a fraction, and again its not your money or mine but a third parties for the vast majority and leveraged in kind work

 

One needs to digress and look back to how long it took to get the chinook program off the ground, here in Lake O. Like the Atlantics hate the Atlantics regardless sit back all of you and think about how that animal is/can be or might be parlayed to get other work done that might not have been done without its presence or addition to SARA the species at risk legislation.

 

Seeing as you are part of a private group that has benefited from being part of the Atlantic salmon program you should know better than anyone how much it costs to raise a yearling Atlantic, and might not be a stretch to say that could be why you're such a fan.

It just staggers me when people say words like "infancy" & "getting off the ground". We're coming up to 30 years of continous Atlantic stocking, and to celebrate we'll just throw up our hands and say "No no no, we're a whole NEW program" and pretend that nothing came before. Because, well, it has produced nothing in Lake Ontario except the very rare & occasional fish. Compared to say the Coho fishery in the 70's or Chinook program in the 80's, y'know when those programs were in their infancy?

 

Need an example, Norval dam has been in the process of getting a new fish bypass since it ceased to operate 20 yrs ago, no where close any program currently could have made that happen in any measurable time frame. Atlantics knock on the door and thank you salar a ladder is in the final stages of approval and is scheduled for construction this summer and sooner or later other species will have the opportunity to use it, thats one single example I could think of about 20 sitting here.

 

The various FMP's being written as we speak how are salar opening doors to habitat?

Species at Risk funding to do riperian work( money that never would come to any other program ) thanks Mr salar, I can continue to the Atlantic haters what other benefits they are and could potentially hold and lets not talk about the fishery in it, Im only talking the potential millions in a pot to do some great habitat work and who benefits all those other cold water salmonids.

 

Now you see, you're getting into the very dangerous political waters of the Atlantics, the bureaucratic doublespeak that infests this program from the top down. So you're going to support a program of imaginary returning fish that exists only on paper because the funding work will benefit real actual fish. I'm sorry you're so shortsighted you don't see the dangers with going down that road, as an example how many streams & rivermouths are now off limits for pen projects & other stocking programs because they're earmarked for Atlantic returns that will never happen?

 

Can someone please demonstrate 1 single negative impact the Salar program has had on the Lake Ontario Fishery.....

 

You mean besides the dangers of bureaucratic doublespeak?

The end of provincial Chinook & Coho stocking would be a start. The vast waste of resources when they could have gone toward other proven fish would be another.

 

Maybe you could answer a question for me, have you thought about what happens when the wine money runs out, what happens then?

[aniceguy]

Chris mind answering a few questions I posed, talk about double talk, mind answering where you recieved your data, any peer reviewed papaers to support anything your talking about

 

 

What evidence do you have or possess that the Atlantics would could or will ever impede the Chinook program?? that’s more in line with the great TV guys fear mongering as we see in your signature again cite some literature that’s peer reviewed that’s credible but without any evidence I don’t think so ....

 

You are referring to a fisheries management plan re a pen site in cootes paradise as the reason a pen can’t go there for the Chinooks, Atlantics didn’t preclude that one from happening please read the FMP it should answer why that site isn’t suitable for a pen project, it had nothing to do with salar

 

The vast resources never would have gone to anything anywhere.....someone was shopping for a feel good project and a venue to introduce a product....someone saw a program and some money for it there’s your Atlantic program. Under no circumstances has this money came from other projects or would it have been there for any other project.

Maybe some project in another province, might have seen the pitch for wine introduction and bought it and today the millions of dollars spent in Ontario could have gone to BC to protect an Okanogan sand frog or something so good to see my province and my favorite rivers got the money not BC. Being part of a PUBLIC group I have seen the direct benefits of this Atlantic program and haven’t seen 1 negative one, sorry I’m waiting for something credible there from you on that part

 

Check the stocking numbers of the early Chinook program against the early Atlantic program then come back with some info on the early parts of a program

 

Let’s not even get to shortsighted discussions, a perfect storm with these additional chinooks in the pens could be eating themselves out of house and home and I’m literally going to cry when/if that happens.

 

I ll wager a few cases of beer on this one...with the advent of these pen sites the fishing off the mouth of the Credit and Bronte will get worse, the blame will be of course the US pen rearing project the MNR and its stocking practice some loch ness type monster eating them all etc....anything, but in reality the fish are spread apart and are honing in on other natal streams. Those small low gradient streams in Kingston and past will see some nice returns of Chinooks that never had them thanks to the pens but it’s just going to be a short sighted solution to dealing with deplorable over capacity stocking practices by the MNR , and I ll go as far to wager that the end result will be Harbor chinooks on the Credit that bloat, and there isn’t a run of fish to sustain a hatchery program. Everyone will say it’s this or that but it’s in reality it’s about spreading fish via short sited management directives....

 

Stock them into the watershed that’s the answer and remove some dams giving them access to proper water

Coho's are another demon, truth there is that certain OMNR staff and some hatchery issues with thermal over loading put collection farther and farther back....good on MEA for spearheading it and CRAA for helping to find the fish this year hope to continue that ...

 

Anyhow to answer your final question, a genie tells me there is another 5 yrs of money in the pipe, thanks to some deliverables provided in the last two years

 

anyhow you can email me those links to support your comments on the original posting if you don’t want to post them here

Edited March 5, 2010 by aniceguy

[splashhopper]

You have much to learn Grasshopper.

 

 

that's why i keep coming back spiel

[CLofchik]

What evidence do you have or possess that the Atlantics would could or will ever impede the Chinook program??

 

Um, you mean apart of completely eliminating the MNR chinook stocking program? Isn't that really enough?

 

You are referring to a fisheries management plan re a pen site in cootes paradise as the reason a pen can’t go there for the Chinooks, Atlantics didn’t preclude that one from happening please read the FMP it should answer why that site isn’t suitable for a pen project, it had nothing to do with salar

 

That's one of the management plans that make it clear how support for Atlantics has taken priority over every other sportfish species. There's three major tribs flowing Hamilton Harbour that all had significant runs of trout & salmon at one time, I'd love to see Chinooks running up Red Hill & Spencers Creek again and the rainbow run up Grindstone back to what it used to be. However that's not going to happen because all three of those streams are now part of the Atlantic salmon recovery program, so stocking rainbows or Chinooks is now off the table. The crazy part is in the Hamilton Harbour Management Plan, the future for the next 10 years of sport angling, Atlantics are mentioned 36 times, more than any other specie of fish. EVEN THOUGH NOT A SINGLE ATLANTIC HAS BEEN STOCKED IN HAMILTON HARBOUR. Your fishery today has been sold down the river for the dream of possibly having Atlantics tomorrow.

 

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/267125.pdf

 

 

anyhow you can email me those links to support your comments on the original posting if you don’t want to post them here

 

What's to email, you should know the score off by heart from your own programs.

You raise what, 10,000 yearlings with 150,000ish Atlantic fry put in by the MNR into the Credit every year right?

What were your returns last year? 40 adult fish?

 

Awesome.

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

i like how you said that "numbers" of atlantics found in the st. mary's could never live along side the pacific salmon, yet in the st. mary's river they successfully live alongside all introduced members of the family.

 

you obviously hate the atlantic stocking program and you're entitled to your opinion. that said, you can't back up anything you say.

[asdve23rveavwa]

A heck of alot of strong feelings on this issue...personally still think we could spend those license dollars in better ways. Yes the Atlantic Salmon is a great fish, but, we have enough proven fish already in the great lakes, IMO.

We will never...NEVER...recreate the water quality/conditions of the long ago past. Let's stick with what works now and try to not screw up the fishery that we have. Is this fisheries progress or regress?

[aniceguy]

Um, you mean apart of completely eliminating the MNR chinook stocking program? Isn't that really enough?

 

what are you talking about.you honestly think the omnr stopped stocking chinooks due to the Atlantics...lol got any proof of that one too. While it was a funny picture you wearing the tv guys shirt posing on the Credit, and I see yous passion for the nooks, the only reason I got into this thread was to point out your obvious leaps of faith and typing blunders on the program, so please if your going to post facts at the very least make sure they are correct rather then some sort of fear mongering on a program....

 

species at risk Native, (including re introduction) naturalized fish that how OMNR manages fish under its spof 2 directive. and any FMP needs to deal with how the MNR wants fisheries driven, some stakeholder input how fish communities are dealt with. Besides dont you think the guys running the chinook program can and are doing a better job then the MNR.

 

soooo how is it that the Atlantics are hindering any other program again...

Edited March 5, 2010 by aniceguy

[asdve23rveavwa]

Um, you mean apart of completely eliminating the MNR chinook stocking program? Isn't that really enough?

 

what are you talking about.you honestly think the omnr

Not sure if this was for me???

I honestly think the OMNR are pretty much useless..."put a fishing rod in their hands"as a well known fishing celebrity is fond of saying.

[aniceguy]

not at all Frankie...was just typing and editing.....the mnr is what it is a under funded, over worked arm of a government

[ehg]

Interesting information contained in this thread.

 

Steelhead are rainbow trout period. Rainbow trout are a morph from the original Pacific salmon.

Thus the Oncorhynchus genera tag. Steelhead are anadromous in the Pacific since they go to saltwater then freshwater to spawn. The stocked great lake steelhead are considered potodramous since they are always in freshwater but retain there steelhead name since they migrate upriver to spawn. Landlocked rainbow trout in inland Ontario lakes are referred to simply as rainbow trout as there is no spawning migration. Whew!

So there is Pacific salmon(Oncorhynchus)(includes rainbows), Atlantic salmon(Salmo)(includes brown trout) and char(Salvelinus)(includes lakers, brookies) in North America.

According to taxonomists the original trout is the brown(Salmo Trutta). 'Trutta' being latin for trout. Browns have evolved from Atlantic salmon bringing some identification problems here at times.

Oddly this thread has been edumacational.

[asdve23rveavwa]

Interesting information contained in this thread.

 

Steelhead are rainbow trout period. Rainbow trout are a morph from the original Pacific salmon.

Thus the Oncorhynchus genera tag. Steelhead are anadromous in the Pacific since they go to saltwater then freshwater to spawn. The stocked great lake steelhead are considered potodramous since they are always in freshwater but retain there steelhead name since they migrate upriver to spawn. Landlocked rainbow trout in inland Ontario lakes are referred to simply as rainbow trout as there is no spawning migration. Whew!

So there is Pacific salmon(Oncorhynchus)(includes rainbows), Atlantic salmon(Salmo)(includes brown trout) and char(Salvelinus)(includes lakers, brookies) in North America.

According to taxonomists the original trout is the brown(Salmo Trutta). 'Trutta' being latin for trout. Browns have evolved from Atlantic salmon bringing some identification problems here at times.

Oddly this thread has been edumacational.

That is the truth I've always known....until now, LOL!!!!!

[Twocoda]

riddle me this ....WHEN and IF the Atlantics should thrive in the fresh water ..without ever returning to the salt water ....where are they going to be classified?

 

For those that are wondering ....there are articles out there that suggest Atlantics are native to Lake O

[solopaddler]

riddle me this ....WHEN and IF the Atlantics should thrive in the fresh water ..without ever returning to the salt water ....where are they going to be classified?

 

For those that are wondering ....there are articles out there that suggest Atlantics are native to Lake O

 

I touched on this earlier in the thread. By all rights they should be called ouannaniche.

 

Nothing is suggested. it's a documented fact and a part of history that Atlantics once thrived in Lake O.

[TDunn]

a part of history that Atlantics once thrived in Lake O.

 

that was my understanding also....

 

 

TDunn

[canadadude]

Definetly an interesting thread but now I'm confused was that silver bullet I caught in Port D yesturday a Rainbow, a Steelhead or a Salmon. Anyway it was alot of fun so I don't care much what you call them, just keep on bringing the fish to me hahahaha

 

And on the Atlantic note I saw 4 mature fish caught at Port Dalhousie this fall and they are an extremly sweet sport fish, and to all that say it's a waste of government money the program has been funded largly on private investors. This program is the first time Private monies have been given back to the fishery

[solopaddler]

Definetly an interesting thread but now I'm confused was that silver bullet I caught in Port D yesturday a Rainbow, a Steelhead or a Salmon. Anyway it was alot of fun so I don't care much what you call them, just keep on bringing the fish to me hahahaha

 

Sounds like you caught yourself a nice salmon there bud LOL!

 

Was actually at port yesterday myself with my 3 year old in tow.

He bugged me to death 'till I brought him over there, then he lasted 5 mins in that cold wind before he wanted to go home. Kids.

[asdve23rveavwa]

This program is the first time Private monies have been given back to the fishery

 

The "first time"?????????? What about all the private clubs that have reared and transported fish up to spawning grounds. Don't kid yourself, if it wasn't for them and American strays...we would have virtually no trout/salmon fishery on our side of the border.

Before I start sounding too angry...nice on the Port D rainbow!

[danjang]

riddle me this ....WHEN and IF the Atlantics should thrive in the fresh water ..without ever returning to the salt water ....where are they going to be classified?

 

For those that are wondering ....there are articles out there that suggest Atlantics are native to Lake O

 

So long as the two populations (oceanic and landlocked) can produce fertile offspring they are considered a single species. They will get a subspecies name to differentiate the two.

 

 

I touched on this earlier in the thread. By all rights they should be called ouannaniche.

 

Nothing is suggested. it's a documented fact and a part of history that Atlantics once thrived in Lake O.

 

True. They were once the mojor salmonid in Lake O.

 

There is a very cool story about the atlantic I learned about at a genetics lab in the ROM. They have a rare 100 year old skinmount of the ouannaniche. They were taking DNA samples to search for this strain that might have been collected for fish farms in other parts of the world. This strain might still exist somewhere!

[StoneFly]

WOW,...Intersting thread...but I wont pretend this debate hasnt been done to death in the past.

 

Personally, I would love to see a flourishing Atlantic population...Ive only ever experienced these fish on TV from the out east flyfishing to be had...It looks absolutely amazing to me,....the strength of chinooks and acrobatics of Steelhead...seems like the perfect river Fish. Not too mention if they did take they would fill in that summer gap we have for river fishing.

 

Whether the atlantics succeed or not,...if money is going into improving habitat that otherwise wouldnt happen...by all means,..this is a GREAT thing IMO!!!

 

If we dropped Nooks altogether and allowed Coho, Steelhead and Browns more space and effort,..I think most River fisherman and possibly the downrigger guys would be quite happy. Don't get me wrong,..the nookies are fun and all,..but if they were gone, so would many of the problems the rivers have. ie., the number of anglers and snagging and garbage etc etc.

 

Personally I hope the Atlantics take and floursih,..however if they dont and the other prized species benefit through wild population increases,...GIDDY UP!!!

 

P.s,..all the debate over the proper names,..Get a grip...lol,..who cares???

[MuskyGreenHorn]

clofchik aounds a lot like Cronzy, thats not an insult, just sayin'. He sure rants a lot about this issue.

 

The debate about salmonid names and what not, its all been settled, they are all in the salmon family, three different genera. If you really want to get confused start researching about all the other rainbow trout offshoots in the Rockies and throughout the States. Another time another place.

 

The first thing anyone should note about Lake Ontario is it is not the same lake it was before we came and messed it all up. Thanks to overfishing, habitat degredation and destruction, and the introduction of the sea lamprey via the St. Lawerence Seaway. Then we decided we needed new fishing opportunities and introduced several pacific salmon and the brown trout. The rivers have all been damned, rerouted, polluted and degraded in one way or another. So even if we had the atlantic salmon of yesteryear to reintroduce, would they take? Thats the best part though. We don't have the proper atlantics to reintroduce. The MNR has got pretty good over the years at maching stocked fish with the intended recieving waters. What i mean is that they choose fish that come from similar habitats. Within any species there are populations from different areas/regions that have already diverged in terms of evolution to adapt to their local environment. I think everyone can agree that a lake trout from Great Slave Lake in the NWT is not the same beast as one from Lake Ontario.

 

So why haven't the MNR done a good match with the Atlantics? I don't know, but they are stocking fish from the east coast and not land locked ones like the ones that used to inhabit he Lake. Like others pointed out though, there is a lot of private money involved here. It does appear to be a "feel good" project. It seems as though things were rushed into because money, interest and polical pressure was there. Also the credit river seems to be one of the main rivers chosen. Why? Maybe some of the MNR biologists in that District (Aurora) have a personally vested intrest? The Atlantics will have to compete with centrarchids and esox in the credit on top of the rainbows and nooks. Seriously.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on this, but they should also realize that appearances are decieving. The more competetive pacific species aren't goin anywhere anytime soon as the Americans will not stop stocking them any time soon. Money would be better spent improving habitat and managing pacific salmon species, or even lake trout (they survived and are still reproducing).

 

I would love to catch an Atlantic myself. I am also a supporter of the MNR and believe the do not get enough funding and resources to opperate to their full potential. But this project in particular is a political one and not one that is biologically sound. I do not believe this project has the public's best interest in mind, it is simply a PR project for private money that the MNR got involved for the wrong reasons at the wront time. It would be nice for a few individuals to claim responsiblity for the Atlantics making return against all odds wouldn't it? The chance at notoriety may have been too much to pass up... Especially when the money and political backing was easy for the taking...

 

Just playing the devils advocate here. No solid accusasions, I just like to ask tough questions and have rumours dispelled.

Edited March 6, 2010 by MuskyGreenHorn

[Musky or Specks]

Ive caight many a ouannaniche in my time and yjey are an amazing fight. Id like to see them brought back but the habitat might be just to degraded and a waste of money somewhat similar to the reintroduction of musky into Simcoe......Oh no he didn't?!>?LO