Rainbows vs steelhead

[vinnimon]

I know the difference between the 2.One spawns twice and the other once.My question is, Is there any proof that steelhead actually go back to saltwater after spawning?For instance, For lake O tribes, up the st lawerence and out to the atlantic.I know that the bows go back to the lake until the next cycle.Has there been any proof that they go back to saltwater, and return, at all?

[danjang]

Steelhead are migratory whereas rainbows aren't. Doesn't matter whether or not its to the ocean. Great lakes are a special case due to its size, they "think" its an ocean. There is sufficient forage fish in the lakes to sustain yhis.

[John Bacon]

All rainbow/steelhead are capable of spawning multiple times in their life. I don't think there is evidence to suggest that significant numbers of any of the steelhead from lake Onrario end up in the Atlantic. If they did it is unlikely that they would return. To do so they would have to pass through the locks.

 

The term steelhead usually refers to a migratory trout... this would include trout that migrate from Lake Ontario to spawn. As mentioned they are capable of spawning more than once. Rainbow trout usually refers to trout that are resident in rivers or small lakes. They are both the same species though.

[vinnimon]

All rainbow/steelhead are capable of spawning multiple times in their life. I don't think there is evidence to suggest that significant numbers of any of the steelhead from lake Onrario end up in the Atlantic. If they did it is unlikely that they would return. To do so they would have to pass through the locks.

 

The term steelhead usually refers to a migratory trout... this would include trout that migrate from Lake Ontario to spawn. As mentioned they are capable of spawning more than once. Rainbow trout usually refers to trout that are resident in rivers or small lakes. They are both the same species though.

I would love to see some evidence that proves that, steelhead make their way back to the atlantic and return to Lake O tribe nesting grounds.I know there is a lot a food for these fish to feed on in the great lakes,to keep them happy.But in my mind im thinking there has to be the odd one that makes a full round trip.The chances are slim to none but, its possible.

[solopaddler]

I would love to see some evidence that proves that, steelhead make their way back to the atlantic and return to Lake O tribe nesting grounds.I know there is a lot a food for these fish to feed on in the great lakes,to keep them happy.But in my mind im thinking there has to be the odd one that makes a full round trip.The chances are slim to none but, its possible.

 

 

1.What you're suggesting is unfortunately impossible.

 

2.Steelhead and rainbow trout are genetically identical and both spawn multiple times.

[dave524]

1.What you're suggesting is unfortunately impossible.

 

2.Steelhead and rainbow trout are genetically identical and both spawn multiple times.

 

 

Maybe not entirely impossible, don't the American Eels make the trip? I know they are not as common as in my youth but I caught one maybe 15 years ago at the mouth of the Forty.

[ironstone74]

Some rainbow spawn from the same hen are often mixed between Rainbow and Steelhead. Some stay local to the river and others migrate. Cool. Depends on the conditions.

[vinnimon]

1.What you're suggesting is unfortunately impossible.

 

2.Steelhead and rainbow trout are genetically identical and both spawn multiple times.

I have to agree with dave524 on this one.The possibilities are slim to none, but not entirely impossible.

Im sure that all barriers have fish ladders to some degree.

[solopaddler]

I have to agree with dave524 on this one.The possibilities are slim to none, but not entirely impossible.

Im sure that all barriers have fish ladders to some degree.

 

In theory it's not impossible but the odds of you winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning in the same day are better.

Edited March 4, 2010 by solopaddler

[Dozer]

Our steel doesn't migrate into the oceans from what I have gathered, other systems' rainbows do.

 

Speaking of steel... 6 more hours

[dave524]

Now that American Eels are on the protected list like sturgeon for Ontario, wonder if some of the impediments between Lake Ontario and the Atlantic are going to be relieved to aid in their recovery? Saw an article somewhere recently that Steelhead that have been identified as from either Ganny or Credit stock are moving into Atlantic Salmon Rivers in the lower St Lawrence and/or Maritimes, obviously they are moving one way. Has anyone heard of any measures or studies planned to help the American Eel recover?

 

edit: Any measures could have implications for other species, good and bad.

Edited March 4, 2010 by dave524

[trevy727]

The rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) is a species of salmonid native to tributaries of the Pacific Ocean in Asia and North America as well as much of the central, western, eastern, and especially the northern portions of the United States.

 

The species has been introduced for food or sport to at least 45 countries, and every continent except Antarctica. In some locations, such as Southern Europe, Australia and South America, they have negatively impacted upland native fish species, either by eating them, outcompeting them, transmitting contagious diseases, or hybridization with closely-related species and subspecies that are native to western North America

 

The species was originally named by Johann Julius Walbaum in 1792 based on type specimens from Kamchatka. Richardson named a specimen of this species Salmo gairdneri in 1836, and in 1855, W. P. Gibbons found a population and named it Salmo iridia, later corrected to Salmo irideus, however these names faded once it was determined that Walbaum's type description was conspecific and therefore had precedence (see e.g. Behnke, 1966).[3] More recently, DNA studies showed rainbow trout are genetically closer to Pacific salmon (Onchorhynchus species) than to brown trout (Salmo trutta) or Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar), so the genus was changed.

 

Unlike the species' former name's epithet iridia (Latin: rainbow), the specific epithet mykiss derives from the local Kamchatkan name 'mykizha'; all of Walbaum's species names were based on Kamchatkan local names.

 

The ocean going (anadromous) form (including those returning for spawning) are known as steelhead, (Canada and the United States) or ocean trout (Australia), although they are the same species.

 

Like salmon, steelhead are anadromous: they return to their original hatching ground to spawn. Similar to Atlantic salmon, but unlike their Pacific Oncorhynchus salmonid kin, steelhead are iteroparous and may make several spawning trips between fresh and salt water. The steelhead smolts (immature or young fish) remain in the river for about a year before heading to sea, whereas salmon typically return to the seas as smolts. Different steelhead populations migrate upriver at different times of the year. "Summer-run steelhead" migrate between May and October, before their reproductive organs are fully mature. They mature in freshwater before spawning in the spring. Most Columbia River steelhead are "summer-run". "Winter-run steelhead" mature fully in the ocean before migrating, between November and April, and spawn shortly after returning. The maximum recorded life-span for a rainbow trout is 11 years.[4] Salmon is often sold as a replacement because their similar taste.

[Twocoda]

In theory it's not impossible but the odds of you winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning in the same day are better.

 

 

Lottery- 1/14 million

Lightening 1/6250 ( i am surprised at this number...truely thought it would be comparable to the lottery)

[solopaddler]

The rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) is a species of salmonid native to tributaries of the Pacific Ocean in Asia and North America as well as much of the central, western, eastern, and especially the northern portions of the United States.

 

The species has been introduced for food or sport to at least 45 countries, and every continent except Antarctica. In some locations, such as Southern Europe, Australia and South America, they have negatively impacted upland native fish species, either by eating them, outcompeting them, transmitting contagious diseases, or hybridization with closely-related species and subspecies that are native to western North America

 

The species was originally named by Johann Julius Walbaum in 1792 based on type specimens from Kamchatka. Richardson named a specimen of this species Salmo gairdneri in 1836, and in 1855, W. P. Gibbons found a population and named it Salmo iridia, later corrected to Salmo irideus, however these names faded once it was determined that Walbaum's type description was conspecific and therefore had precedence (see e.g. Behnke, 1966).[3] More recently, DNA studies showed rainbow trout are genetically closer to Pacific salmon (Onchorhynchus species) than to brown trout (Salmo trutta) or Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar), so the genus was changed.

 

Unlike the species' former name's epithet iridia (Latin: rainbow), the specific epithet mykiss derives from the local Kamchatkan name 'mykizha'; all of Walbaum's species names were based on Kamchatkan local names.

 

The ocean going (anadromous) form (including those returning for spawning) are known as steelhead, (Canada and the United States) or ocean trout (Australia), although they are the same species.

 

Like salmon, steelhead are anadromous: they return to their original hatching ground to spawn. Similar to Atlantic salmon, but unlike their Pacific Oncorhynchus salmonid kin, steelhead are iteroparous and may make several spawning trips between fresh and salt water. The steelhead smolts (immature or young fish) remain in the river for about a year before heading to sea, whereas salmon typically return to the seas as smolts. Different steelhead populations migrate upriver at different times of the year. "Summer-run steelhead" migrate between May and October, before their reproductive organs are fully mature. They mature in freshwater before spawning in the spring. Most Columbia River steelhead are "summer-run". "Winter-run steelhead" mature fully in the ocean before migrating, between November and April, and spawn shortly after returning. The maximum recorded life-span for a rainbow trout is 11 years.[4] Salmon is often sold as a replacement because their similar taste.

 

 

A good recap, except our great lakes steelhead aren't anadromous they're potodramous.

 

And another thing since I'm being such a stickler. The so called atlantic salmon that are being stocked right now will never see the salt.

Historically the original "atlantic salmon" were potodramous as well never travelling to the sea.

 

Shouldn't it be called the ouannaniche restoration program?

[asdve23rveavwa]

.

 

Shouldn't it be called the ouannaniche restoration program?

 

Should be called the "total waste of tax money program" IMO. Don't think the program will ever take off properly...steelhead are a proven success in our great lakes, but, the ministry in their infinite wisdom is trying to re-create the past.

[Spiel]

I know the difference between the 2.One spawns twice and the other once.

 

You have much to learn Grasshopper.

[solopaddler]

Should be called the "total waste of tax money program" IMO. Don't think the program will ever take off properly...steelhead are a proven success in our great lakes, but, the ministry in their infinite wisdom is trying to re-create the past.

 

 

Actually the returns have been nothing short of amazing at least in my opinion. Very encouraging.

 

From what I've seen the powers that be should be encouraged to continue.

 

We don't have to look very far here in ON to find an already established fishery for atlantics. One that thrives and provides fantastic sport.

The mid summer fishery at the St. Mary's rapids in the Soo is nothing short of spectacular.

No reason whatsoever we can't enjoy a similar fishery down here.

Edited March 4, 2010 by solopaddler

[solopaddler]

Lottery- 1/14 million

Lightening 1/6250 ( i am surprised at this number...truely thought it would be comparable to the lottery)

 

 

 

Now figure out the odds of both happening to you on the same day.

 

 

(Side note, but vinnimon pm'd me. He wanted me to pick 4 numbers for the lotto on Fri, he's buying the ticket. This board is great LOL! )

Edited March 4, 2010 by solopaddler

[vinnimon]

 

Now figure out the odds of both happening to you on the same day.

 

 

(Side note, but vinnimon pm'd me. He wanted me to pick 4 numbers for the lotto on Fri, he's buying the ticket. This board is great LOL! )

AHHH GEEEZ,A week from tomorrow!I start a new job tomorrow,and with my luck no 2 good things are going to happen in one day.Thats my luck.

[asdve23rveavwa]

Actually the returns have been nothing short of amazing at least in my opinion. Very encouraging.

 

From what I've seen the powers that be should be encouraged to continue.

 

We don't have to look very far here in ON to find an already established fishery for atlantics. One that thrives and provides fantastic sport.

The mid summer fishery at the St. Mary's rapids in the Soo is nothing short of spectacular.

No reason whatsoever we can't enjoy a similar fishery down here.

 

Hope you are right, because, they are an amazing fish...fingers crossed...perhaps I am a little "jaded" when it comes to what our governments have done with license dollars in the past.

[CLofchik]

Actually the returns have been nothing short of amazing at least in my opinion. Very encouraging.

 

From what I've seen the powers that be should be encouraged to continue.

 

We don't have to look very far here in ON to find an already established fishery for atlantics. One that thrives and provides fantastic sport.

The mid summer fishery at the St. Mary's rapids in the Soo is nothing short of spectacular.

No reason whatsoever we can't enjoy a similar fishery down here.

 

I don't know if you haven't had the first coffee in the morning, if you've drunk some funny tasting Kool-Aid, or the rabies from the wolf bite has moved to it's final stage and your brains are slowly being broiled in a fevered delerium.

To get the level of Atlantics in St.Mary's on one river would need the complete elimination of every other fishery in Lake O. No chinooks, no steelhead, no browns, no lakers, nothing. All to get 40,000 stocking dependent Atlantics in one river system.

 

Not only are your comments about Atlantics self indulgent pie in the sky daydreaming, but it's the kind of back slapping head in the sand enabling that has rendered the MNR not just irrelevant, but a hostile combatant to the future fisheries of Lake O.

 

P.S. Atlantics were never native above Niagara Falls, the only places where they have managed to survive in freshwater they are an invasive species. Oh the irony.

[solopaddler]

I don't know if you haven't had the first coffee in the morning, if you've drunk some funny tasting Kool-Aid, or the rabies from the wolf bite has moved to it's final stage and your brains are slowly being broiled in a fevered delerium.

To get the level of Atlantics in St.Mary's on one river would need the complete elimination of every other fishery in Lake O. No chinooks, no steelhead, no browns, no lakers, nothing. All to get 40,000 stocking dependent Atlantics in one river system.

 

Not only are your comments about Atlantics self indulgent pie in the sky daydreaming, but it's the kind of back slapping head in the sand enabling that has rendered the MNR not just irrelevant, but a hostile combatant to the future fisheries of Lake O.

 

P.S. Atlantics were never native above Niagara Falls, the only places where they have managed to survive in freshwater they are an invasive species. Oh the irony.

 

 

Pretty harsh clofchik.

 

The steelhead and kings seem to be thriving nicely alongside the atlantics in northern lake Huron.

Why exactly would other species need to be eliminated in Lake O?

 

My comments are based on personal experiences catching these fish in the last couple years.

We had a day out east last year where huge numbers were caught. Opened my eyes for sure.

 

Exactly what are you basing your venomous comments on?

 

Self indulgent pie in the sky daydreaming? You've got nerve I'll give you that.

[torco]

Here is an interesting blog link since we are discussing the biology of rainbows and steelhead.

 

http://flyaddicts.com/flygal/2010/02/19/trout-in-a-new-light/ ://http://flyaddicts.com/flygal/2010/0...n-a-new-light/

[CLofchik]

Self indulgent pie in the sky daydreaming? You've got nerve I'll give you that.

 

Atlantics spawning successfully in the Great Lakes is nil.

Successful adult returns for fish stocked as fry & smolts is nil.

The only returning adults in any fishable numbers were stocked as yearlings.

The amount of resources it takes to collect, hatch, feed & raise an Atlantic is exponential compared to every other specie currently being stocked.

 

That's the unassailable truth behind every Atlantic program on the Great Lakes. For the MNR to raise 40,000 yearling Atlantics would require the money & even more valuable hatchery space that's currently used for every other fish stocked in Lake O, which everybody except the MNR recognizes as a stocking dependent fishery.

To get a St.Mary's size of run just in the Credit, would mean an end to every other MNR stocking program on Lake Ontario, for a relatively small off season river fishery, a negligible offshore boat fishery, and a lot of empty water.

 

Back before I became a bitter, disillusioned, venomous old man and still held out some hope of a future for this side of Lake O I put together some fairly intensive back of a napkin cost analysis (that was promptly deleted from floatfishing.net). It costs in the neighbourhood of $1500 to get a returning mature Atlantic, $1.25 for a King.

 

That's insane (or once processed through the swivel servant bureaucracy of an Ontario ministry, perfectly reasonable). The Soo has a small regional fishery that is supported wholly by a private US institution. Enjoy catching them, but everywhere else there are much much better choices of sportfish.

 

P.S. Ooooh I like "Venomous". I didn't quite mean to sound the way it came off, but I'll settle for "Venomous"

[Dozer]

Thats a lot of money for a yearling to swim down stream, hit the lake and then get attacked by something... how come it costs $1,500 per fish? I'm no fish rearing expert, certainly not Atlantics ( haha ), but that does sound like a big number for per fish.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Dozer