So Canada has just put in 10.5 Billion in GM

[otter649]

I wonder what the laid off workers in the forestry industries out west think of this......not much.

[holdfast]

I wonder what the laid off workers in the forestry industries out west think of this......not much.

 

 

They are Pissed. They Blame Central Canada, (Ontario), The Opposition Parties, and Basically feel they're nothing but second rate Canadian citizens and the Prime Minister is being forced to do this as a Minority Government thanks to you know who. Its just not the Forestry workers either. Its 95 percent Westerners except Vancouver.

 

Pretend your a Westerner and turn on CBC. You might see what I mean.

[ch312]

I find it a little odd that some people have zero sympathy for people on pension. These people were promised a certain pension after a certain amount of service. They fulfilled their part of the deal...you want to see them screwed now? That guy who mentioned pensioners "being on vacation" is talking total nonsense. They're retired. What does vacation have to do with being pensioned off? I can only assume whoever said that has less than 5 years service with whoever he works for now. Maybe I'm wrong. If so, I apolagize in advance.

 

You put in 25 or 30 years loyal service (to a company that made buckets of money for 28 of those years) with certain promises made to you, see them evaporate and we'll see how quick you change your tune.

 

I'm really sorry to whom I possibly offend, but I can't help but think that begrudging retiries is a little shameful. I'm only in my 30's but I'd hate like heck to see the plans I have for my retirement go to crap...and I'd also hate to see someone else jammed up that way.

 

why should MY tax dollars be given to those who were promised a pension from GM? i do not have any association with GM, so why should my money go to its workers or previous employees? they should be getting a normal government pension like other seniors who do not get a pension from their employer or those who's previous employers went under.

 

our money could be used for much better things than spoiled ex union workers

[Fishnwire]

Do the members not vote in their executive? Doesn't each member have a vote at strike time?

 

Yes the members get to vote on the executive. Do you think they were given a choice of a lot of candidates running on the "We're too greedy and lazy" platform? Maybe you think they should have demanded to go out on strike unless they had their pay cut? Like most working people, they probably felt they had worked for, and deserved every penny they earned. Isn't that how you feel about your paycheck?

 

I don't think anybody disagrees that auto workers have one helluva nice compensation package compared to other manufacturing jobs. Maybe they wouldn't be asked to give up so much if they hadn't been so greedy in the first place. They are assembly line workers, not lawyers.

 

They made an excellent working class wage. What's so wrong with that? They made enough to pay their mortgages, for their family vehicles, to raise their kids and maybe had a little left over to buy a couple of toys. None of these guys ever got rich doing their job, so in that way they definately are not lawyers. You're right that they made more than other assembly line workers, which made it easier for other assembly line workers to justify asking for raises of their own. More people with good paying jobs is good for the economy, right?...As a matter of fact, more people with good paying jobs is the very definition of a good economy, as far as I'm concerned.

 

If it's one of the world's biggest and most profitable corporations then why are we even having this conversation?

 

The collective agreemnts between the company and union (which you feel the workers were "greedy" by accepting) were ratified when GM was one of the biggest and most profitable corporations in the world. I thought that was obvious.

 

Please don't put words in other people's mouths.

 

I didn't put words in your mouth, dude. I'm attempting to illustrate how both ways of thinking are equally illogical.

 

 

This has been fun but I'm off to camp for 4 days. I can only hope this thread will be buried by the time I get back. Cheers and tight lines, all.

[Chris]

More people with good paying jobs is good for the economy, right?

 

Not if it helps bankrupt the company they work for. You surely must understand supply and demand.....that consumers are not a bottomless pit. If a good chunk of the price of their new car goes to paying for higher than average wages, over-the-top benefits, pensions and legacy costs for the employees, something else has to suffer....quality of the auto maybe. Mine surely is a piece of crap.

 

GM had rear brake problems on mid-sized sedans for most of the late 80's and 90's. Why was this engineering problem never fixed in almost 15 years? Guess it's easier to screw the customer....let him put new rear brakes on every year. Or what about the paint problem GM still has with their vehicles. How many GM's have you seen with paint peeling off? They have had this problem for years yet....not only do they turn their back on their customers who have this problem, they have made no attempt to fix the problem on cars still coming off the assembly line.

 

I don't think GM gets it even now. I keep seeing their ceo's and reps on tv saying that the "new" GM has to start looking at new features and styles that customers want. How about forget the blinking lights, on-star, self-locking doors, keyless entry and other gizmo crap and start manufacturing quality products that stay on the road?

 

Besides, if their employees are still trying to justify their compensation package, I guess that GM is still in big trouble.

[holdfast]

Agreed

[Jonny]

I'm in agreement with Fishnwire in just about everything he says.

 

As far as GM is concerned (and Ford and Chrysler too), I think that what they should do is start offering a manufacturer's warranty for their vehicles the same as Toyota and some of the other foreign makes --- a three-year bumper-to-bumper warranty. Never mind just the power train (with exceptions).

 

Offer the bumper-to-bumper, and build to that quality. That would do more IMO than other fancy gimmicks to gain them sales.

[POLLIWOGG]

Once the $3K car from India gets here you won't have to worry about expensive repairs, you just replace the car.

[Jonny]

Once the $3K car from India gets here you won't have to worry about expensive repairs, you just replace the car.

 

Once the $3K car from India gets here and is upgraded for Canadian conditions and certified for Canadian roads, it'll cost $12K.

[Stoty]

why should MY tax dollars be given to those who were promised a pension from GM? i do not have any association with GM, so why should my money go to its workers or previous employees? they should be getting a normal government pension like other seniors who do not get a pension from their employer or those who's previous employers went under.

 

our money could be used for much better things than spoiled ex union workers

 

AMEN brother.

It's too bad the Prime Minister doesnt think like that too.

[Jonny]

our money could be used for much better things than spoiled ex union workers

 

Probably a number of reasons, two of which might be:

 

1. The money is not likely being paid specifically to the pensions; it's being paid to cover the GM shortfall, of which the pensions are a part. Would it sound better if that money was earmarked for other areas (though still part of the same pot)?

 

2. GM screwed up bigtime, no question. Part of the screw-up, if I recall correctly, was raiding the pension plan so there was an unfunded shortfall. That's the company's fault, not the workers'.

 

The GM workers are lucky that their pensions are bound up in the much bigger issue of the failure of the company and the loss of a large chunk of our industrial base, or else the gov't probably would have done the same as it has done when other companies used pension funds greedily or unwisely --- nothing. In Northern Ontario I've seen too many workers in the mines and resource industries lose pensions, or part of them, because of shady, unethical dealings by the companies they worked for.

 

"Spoiled union workers" sounds a little harsh. It sounds a little like clawing at someone who has managed to gain a good living and drag them down to that oh-so-desirable subsistence level. Can't there be some good-paying jobs in this country, even if we ourselves don't have them, without calling the workers undeserving?

[bullybass]

I never understand the disdain that people have towards these unionized employees and their "above average wages". I have seen so many times that the labour costs associated with cars produced to be around 7-10% of the cost of said car. Do you really think that if the union decided that they would take a huge pay cut that the consumer would see any benefit to this. The fat cat upper management would just end up sucking this saving in via enormous bonuses... likely associated with getting the union to take the cut in the first place. Would the cost of the cars go down because of this? I don't think so. The only thing that is going to make the cost go down is competition with all the other companies out there... along with desperation with the current situation. Just my 2 cents but last time I checked houses still cost on average $200,000 + for anything decent. How does one afford that working for $12/hr at a manufacturing facility where things like pension and safety take a back seat to the owner getting rich? Not to mention having to pay the $100+/month for any health benefits... ever been to the dentist without benefits... not to mention going with your whole family!!!

bullybass

[ch312]

Probably a number of reasons, two of which might be:

 

1. The money is not likely being paid specifically to the pensions; it's being paid to cover the GM shortfall, of which the pensions are a part. Would it sound better if that money was earmarked for other areas (though still part of the same pot)?

 

2. GM screwed up bigtime, no question. Part of the screw-up, if I recall correctly, was raiding the pension plan so there was an unfunded shortfall. That's the company's fault, not the workers'.

 

The GM workers are lucky that their pensions are bound up in the much bigger issue of the failure of the company and the loss of a large chunk of our industrial base, or else the gov't probably would have done the same as it has done when other companies used pension funds greedily or unwisely --- nothing. In Northern Ontario I've seen too many workers in the mines and resource industries lose pensions, or part of them, because of shady, unethical dealings by the companies they worked for.

 

"Spoiled union workers" sounds a little harsh. It sounds a little like clawing at someone who has managed to gain a good living and drag them down to that oh-so-desirable subsistence level. Can't there be some good-paying jobs in this country, even if we ourselves don't have them, without calling the workers undeserving?

 

it would sound better if GM got $0. it doesnt matter to me is GM screwed over its workers or not. why should the money i worked hard for go to these people? exactly, it shouldnt. if the company i work for goes teats up tomorrow, would you be happy if your tax dollars were handed to me?

 

im all for people making good money and a lot of people deserve more money than they make. everyone who relies on a company pension should have enough brains to realize that the money they are counting on may not be there. what makes GM workers so special while others have lost their company pensions? the point you are missing here is our tax dollars are going to these pensioners when it could be used for education, healthcare, roads, etc. but instead it is going to pay for someones vacation to vegas while kids in school are denied computers because there is no money.

 

explain to me how that is right...

[Jonny]

I`m all for letting a company go teats up if they mess up.

 

But the US gov`t and the Canadian gov`t decided that this just couldn`t be allowed to happen to GM. They had their reasons, and I don`t think it all had to do with being in big business`s pocket. Call me gullible, but I buy some of those reasons, much as I dislike seeing public money bail out private enterprise.

 

Kids in the classroom DO have computers, by the way. I know that first-hand, and you should see what they can do with the help of a good computer teacher. Things that most of us, even as adults, took years to learn, or never learned, just scratching the surface with internet, word pro, and email.

[ch312]

I`m all for letting a company go teats up if they mess up.

 

But the US gov`t and the Canadian gov`t decided that this just couldn`t be allowed to happen to GM. They had their reasons, and I don`t think it all had to do with being in big business`s pocket. Call me gullible, but I buy some of those reasons, much as I dislike seeing public money bail out private enterprise.

 

Kids in the classroom DO have computers, by the way. I know that first-hand, and you should see what they can do with the help of a good computer teacher. Things that most of us, even as adults, took years to learn, or never learned, just scratching the surface with internet, word pro, and email.

 

im 23 so im part of the computer age

 

i went to a catholic school and that school board has a lot more money. many of my friends went to public high schools and they still cant believe how much better i had it in a catholic high school. there were enough mountain bikes, roller blades, skies, bow and arrows, tennis rackets, etc for 2 full classes. there were also great computer rooms.

 

now you look at all of the public high schools here in brantford, none of them have any of that equipment for gym class and the computers are junk. money like this would be much better for education

[Moosebunk]

EVERYTHING ASIDE.

 

Companies should be responsible to themselves and their own... especially ones with millions and billions in assets. The global economy upon which they feast or famine has seen highs and lows throughout the century and from the beginning of the auto industries time... it was, has and should always be their top priority to prepare themselves for changes in the tide. The money they make and have made should have ensured this... regardless of Union, pension, work-force, administration and even product issues. Their internal plans and actions didn't make the grade... so they fail. And fail means... start over next year from the bottom and do it again to get it right... NOT, push 'em through to the next grade because ego is more important than foundation.

 

This "me" generation we somtimes talk of today does not just involve the children around us. In 20-30-40 years time, the actions of the governments today will come back and bite many people in the buttocks. And my bet is, it will happen over and over and over again... perpetuating the ideal that a failing grade is OK... someone will still give us an "A" and pull us through anyways.

 

Just my $0.02 before the morning cup.

[Jonny]

Yes, Catholic high schools have more money from the general tax pool than public schools. In Northern Ontario with the extra French grants some of them have a lot more.

 

Yet in the public schools I am familiar with, they're doing fine. In one particular middle school the computer lab gets new computers every 2 or 3 years, there's a dedicated computer teacher and you'd be amazed what Grade 7's and 8's can do - they can navigate Excel spreadsheets, turn out polished Power Point presentations, etc. etc. All places are not the same - it depends on the local base and the allocation of resources.

 

But back to car manufacture and the basic question... The federal and Ontario governments had little choice but to ante up some bail-out money after the US government did so. You might note that the German government threw money at the problem too, afraid to let its auto industry take a big hit.

 

Again, I am not happy about tax money going to corporations, but I can't see that there was much choice in Canada once the American government committed to that course. A lot of people feel that it was necessary, and the better of two unpleasant choices.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Jocko Point Jonny

[holdfast]

Yes, Catholic high schools have more money from the general tax pool than public schools. In Northern Ontario with the extra French grants some of them have a lot more.

 

Yet in the public schools I am familiar with, they're doing fine. In one particular middle school the computer lab gets new computers every 2 or 3 years, there's a dedicated computer teacher and you'd be amazed what Grade 7's and 8's can do - they can navigate Excel spreadsheets, turn out polished Power Point presentations, etc. etc. All places are not the same - it depends on the local base and the allocation of resources.

 

But back to car manufacture and the basic question... The federal and Ontario governments had little choice but to ante up some bail-out money after the US government did so. You might note that the German government threw money at the problem too, afraid to let its auto industry take a big hit.

 

Again, I am not happy about tax money going to corporations, but I can't see that there was much choice in Canada once the American government committed to that course. A lot of people feel that it was necessary, and the better of two unpleasant choices.

 

No, why dont we complain about Arts Funding to make Quebec and Liberals Happy instead of monies to victims of Crime in the next election.. Like I said. Tax cuts and Let ME RESTORE THE ECONOMY with MY MONEY

 

Edit: I've taken the liberty of correcting the spelling of one of Canada's provinces. I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings.

Roy

[mikeh]

Does anybody know where the US or Canada is going to come up with this money initially? . From what I understand the Federal Reserve in the US is owned by private companies and I think the US has to borrow the money from the Federal Reserve. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Chris]

Anyone notice that every year there is new crisis that the gov't. of the day lays on us. A few years ago the crisis was our health care system. Dalton taxed us to the tune of $600/year and wait times didn't get any shorter, in fact they increased. You don't hear much about health care anymore. Then it was west nile virus. Studies, task forces, etc. the bills added up. What happened to that? No word about west nile deaths anywhere anymore. Then it was the millions and millions for the SARS outbreak. Has SARS been eliminated? You never hear about it anymore. Then it was the immenent threat of a pandemic, that never happened. A lot of taxpayer money went into so-called preventative measures. The yearly flu shots allow doctors to charge a flat fee to taxpayers for each shot given, yet the shot are only good for flus that already happened, not any new pandemic. You don't hear much about that anymore, except that they still want you to get flu shots every year. Now it's the global economy. My guess is after they bilk us for billions more things will carry on as normal, as they usually do. Except that over 10 billion dollars has been removed from the taxpayer wealth base.

 

All of these crisis' cost taxpayers dearly. I read once that were a few ways that gov't. control the masses. One is to preoccupy our minds through the age old "divide and conquer" routine which is played out at each election. Actually the three major parties policies differ very little in the grand sceme of things, but there we are at election time, fighting for "our" party and calling the other side names like children in a sand box (actually children are better behaved....). The other is through fear. They know people will cough up money when threatened with a crisis. I predict it will take a while for the masses to come around, it always does. But eventually, living in the age of technical communications, people will wise up to gov't and start to react. All these crisis' are govt made. Yeah there's always some basis of truth to them, but you know how the media (the govt's lap dog) blows everything out of proportion.

 

My rant for Monday morning.

[holdfast]

The Environment Tax grab. Lets see, I goes to Walmart and Buys a TV plus environmental Fees. I take my old TVs to the Dumps and they charge me Dump fees to Bury it. Ok, how come I just paid an Environmental fee. Where did it go, to Whom, To What? Ah maybe the Arts!

[Jonny]

Don't get me started on the ways our system doesn't work. But it's the best we've got. I think human nature prevents us from getting anything better.

 

People are just too happy to think that a Stanley Cup playoff game is important. They're too happy doing their own little thing. They're too preoccupied with their own lives. They're too prone to carp to a circle of friends and co-workers and leave it at that. They're too complacent. They're too apathetic. They're too insular and opinionated. They're too gullible. They're too happy to let others do the work and take the responsibility unless they screw up bigtime. They're too eager to jump on bandwagons, and then jump off them again, thinking they have made a difference.

 

Big government and big business know how to play on those things. And people who rise into the ranks of those who have the power to make a difference forget where they came from and become part of a circle of entitlement as long as they have that short memory. They lose their honesty and integrity because they see what politics and knowing the right people can get them.

 

Latest case in point - that woman who was CEO of "eHealth Ontario" (whatever the hell that is) - feather-bedding, corrupt, and now kicked out because she was too stupid about it, and now eligible for a severance package (despite the fact that she was caught red-handed with her fingers in the cookie jar) to the tune of some $300,000+ !!!

 

Now that paints a pretty black picture. We do have honest people with integrity, and we do have enough openness to catch the dumbest and or greediest criminals. We do have a media that can be effective in exposing things. But I get the feeling that we just see the tip of the iceberg, maybe just enough to feel that the system really does work well enough, while underneath that, in the big picture, things are being arranged to benefit people who stay as invisible as they can.

 

My Monday morning rant.

[Chris]

The Environment Tax grab

 

Thanks HF, I forgot about that one!

 

Well said JPJ