Chinook Spawning Habits?

[TerryC]

I have noticed that many Tribs with no stocking of Salmon have decent sized runs in certain years. Also many of these tribs appear to have no real natural runs of fish in previous years. Are these stocked fish from other areas which have no instinct to return to a natural spawning area and simply find a creek to spawn in? The one particular creek i am thinking of is having a very large Chinook run right now and I beiieve that there were no fish up this particular Trib for the past 4 or five years.

 

I am not looking to cause a huge debate or argument with this thread, just looking for some educated opinion.

 

Thanks

 

Clarence

[BillM]

They definitely had runs in previous years (perhaps not as big) but I'm guessing you just didn't see them

[TerryC]

They definitely had runs in previous years (perhaps not as big) but I'm guessing you just didn't see them

 

Thanks Bill, You may be right. If they spawned in a lower portion or even the mouth of the Trib in years past, would they now run all the way up the creek to spawn. Am I most likely seeing natuarly reproducing Fish? I am almost certain there is no stocking program in this Trib.

 

Clarence

Edited October 21, 2011 by Clarence

[BillM]

If you are seeing salmon spawning, they most likely not from any stocking efforts in Ontario.. Lake O has a healthy population of wild fish (I'm sure Craig or John can set me straight on numbers)

[dave524]

Lots of creeks, ditches and flows will get a few salmon, especially with all the present rain and the with the quality of the these flows, successful spawning and smolting of fry would not be possble. The fish going up these less than satisfactory waters would be lost stockers that were dumped in harbour mouths as fry with little imprinting. I'm pretty sure a wild fish, that was hatched, grew up and smolted from a creek that would support natural reproduction would be sufficently imprinted with its home water to return when it was time.

If it runs into Lake Ontario and a fish can get up, they will try, seen salmon and trout in some pretty strange places along the south shore come spawning time.

[TerryC]

Lots of creeks, ditches and flows will get a few salmon, especially with all the present rain and the with the quality of the these flows, successful spawning and smolting of fry would not be possble. The fish going up these less than satisfactory waters would be lost stockers that were dumped in harbour mouths as fry with little imprinting. I'm pretty sure a wild fish, that was hatched, grew up and smolted from a creek that would support natural reproduction would be sufficently imprinted with its home water to return when it was time.

If it runs into Lake Ontario and a fish can get up, they will try, seen salmon and trout in some pretty strange places along the south shore come spawning time.

Thanks for the info Dave, I really don't want to mention the Trib I am talking about, i hope it just gets left alone. However it was not a suitable spawning creek a few years ago, now it is greatly improved for many reasons. This is why I am so curious about this particular run of fish. I am hoping that it is the improvents that have been made which are making the difference. It has been about five years since the upgrades nad I am trying to figure out why it took until this year for the Chinooks to show up in such strong numbers.

 

Do you feel that the Salmon/Trout that run the creek in your home town are stocked or natual reproduction fish?

 

Thanks,

 

Clarence

[dave524]

 

Do you feel that the Salmon/Trout that run the creek in your home town are stocked or natual reproduction fish?

 

Thanks,

 

Clarence

 

30 years ago when I first moved here there was much more flow year round and Chinook reproduction might have been possible, especially since the fry hit the lake before the summer spike in water temps. Doubt that any of the other species would make it as they have to spend a summer in the creek before hitting the big water, water gets too warm for them. Now they only really get upstream during weather like now and when the water drops they end up stranded in a few pools or beached. In the 80's several hundred made it past the QEW, Main Street and further, back then they was always a mess of dead ones behind what was Miracle Mart back then, Food Basics now. Gotta be lost stockers now though IMHO.

[TerryC]

30 years ago when I first moved here there was much more flow year round and Chinook reproduction might have been possible, especially since the fry hit the lake before the summer spike in water temps. Doubt that any of the other species would make it as they have to spend a summer in the creek before hitting the big water, water gets too warm for them. Now they only really get upstream during weather like now and when the water drops they end up stranded in a few pools or beached. In the 80's several hundred made it past the QEW, Main Street and further, back then they was always a mess of dead ones behind what was Miracle Mart back then, Food Basics now. Gotta be lost stockers now though IMHO.

I Remember the runs in your creek thirty years ago, (I'm 37 now). My dad took me down under the Railway bridge close to town and the chinnys were in there by the hundreds, ,maybe thousands. It's a shame those days gone.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

 

Clarence

Edited October 21, 2011 by Clarence

[John Bacon]

Starting with the spring of 2008, all Chinook stocked into the Lake Ontario watershed have their adipose fin clipped. Theoretically all stocked fish in Lake Ontario should have had their adipose fin clipped; while natural salmon would have an intact adipose fin.

 

The fish stocked in the spring of 2008 were from eggs collected in 2007. The normal life cycle for Chinooks is four years so any salmon stocked prior to 2008 should have already spawned.

 

One thing we at MEA learned last year was that most of the males spawned after three years. And I am not referring to Jacks. Last year when we collected eggs from the credit, the males were clipped (ie stocked in 2008 or later) while the females were unclipped (stocked prior to 2008). It is possible that some fish will spawn on a 5 year cycle. We didn't know about the 3 year cycle for males until last year... so who knows what else we don't know. I wasn't involved in the egg collection this year but I understand that the vast majority of fish in the credit were clipped. So there doesn't appear to be significant number of 5 year old fish in the credit.

 

In summary, you should be able to determine if the fish are stocked or not by checking to see if they have an adipose fin. The adipose fin the small fin located just in front of the tail on the top of the fish.

 

Many of the the Chinook salmon are stocked directly into Lake Ontario and there has been a significant increase in pen reared salmon in recent years. These fish would not have a 'home' river to return to, and may seek other rivers to spawn. Stocking sites, and the number of fish stocked in each site has remained mostly constant over the years. However, in some cases extra fish are stocked at the mouth of the Niagara to make up for short falls on the U.S. side.

 

The main change in stocking has been an increase in pen projects. The pens are located near the previous sites but pen reared fish are believed to have better survival rates and a stronger urge to return to the same area. These factors could account for an increase in particular rivers.

 

Weather can also account for changes. Rainfall and water temperatures will impact the timing and size of runs in the fall. Favourable conditions can impact the survival rate of fish in the spring. I suspect that natural salmon would be subject to greater variations in numbers from year to year.

 

I hope this helps.

[OutdoorDan]

John,

 

Are American stocked fish also clipped?

[John Bacon]

Yes, the Americans are clipping their fish as well.

[OutdoorDan]

Thanks, good to know!

[TerryC]

Starting with the spring of 2008, all Chinook stocked into the Lake Ontario watershed have their adipose fin clipped. Theoretically all stocked fish in Lake Ontario should have had their adipose fin clipped; while natural salmon would have an intact adipose fin.

 

The fish stocked in the spring of 2008 were from eggs collected in 2007. The normal life cycle for Chinooks is four years so any salmon stocked prior to 2008 should have already spawned.

 

One thing we at MEA learned last year was that most of the males spawned after three years. And I am not referring to Jacks. Last year when we collected eggs from the credit, the males were clipped (ie stocked in 2008 or later) while the females were unclipped (stocked prior to 2008). It is possible that some fish will spawn on a 5 year cycle. We didn't know about the 3 year cycle for males until last year... so who knows what else we don't know. I wasn't involved in the egg collection this year but I understand that the vast majority of fish in the credit were clipped. So there doesn't appear to be significant number of 5 year old fish in the credit.

 

In summary, you should be able to determine if the fish are stocked or not by checking to see if they have an adipose fin. The adipose fin the small fin located just in front of the tail on the top of the fish.

 

Many of the the Chinook salmon are stocked directly into Lake Ontario and there has been a significant increase in pen reared salmon in recent years. These fish would not have a 'home' river to return to, and may seek other rivers to spawn. Stocking sites, and the number of fish stocked in each site has remained mostly constant over the years. However, in some cases extra fish are stocked at the mouth of the Niagara to make up for short falls on the U.S. side.

 

The main change in stocking has been an increase in pen projects. The pens are located near the previous sites but pen reared fish are believed to have better survival rates and a stronger urge to return to the same area. These factors could account for an increase in particular rivers.

 

Weather can also account for changes. Rainfall and water temperatures will impact the timing and size of runs in the fall. Favourable conditions can impact the survival rate of fish in the spring. I suspect that natural salmon would be subject to greater variations in numbers from year to year.

 

I hope this helps.

Thanks for the reply John, There is alot of good information there. I will try to get a look at a few of these fish today and see if they are clipped or not.

 

P.S: What does MEA stand for?

 

Thanks,

 

Clarence

[John Bacon]

Thanks for the reply John, There is alot of good information there. I will try to get a look at a few of these fish today and see if they are clipped or not.

 

P.S: What does MEA stand for?

 

Thanks,

 

Clarence

 

MEA stands for Metro East Anglers. We have operated the Ringwood Hatchery for the last five years and were responsible for all of the Chinook and coho stocking on the Canadian side of Lake Ontario. MNR will now be taking over the Chinook stocking. MEA plans to continue operations of Ringwood hatchery on a smaller scale. The details are still being ironed out.

 

The future plan for MEA is to raise coho, browns, and rainbows out of Ringwood. Other species may be added in the future.

 

Metro East Anglers also assists MNR in the operation of the fish way at the Milne Dam.

 

In the past Metro East Anglers has raised rainbows, browns, atlantics, and some Chinook and coho out of a small hatchery on Parkview golf course. It was Metro East Anglers who revived the coho stocking program for Lake Ontario after the MNR ceased stocking of cohos.

Edited October 22, 2011 by JohnBacon

[Ralph Field]

As John said some of the stocking has been off piers straight into the lake so these fish have no home river and therefore they may ascend any river or creek. The pen program is designed to let the fish imprint on the river where they are reared, so that when it is time to spawn they will return to the river where they were pen reared.

[TerryC]

MEA stands for Metro East Anglers. We have operated the Ringwood Hatchery for the last five years and were responsible for all of the Chinook and coho stocking on the Canadian side of Lake Ontario. MNR will now be taking over the Chinook stocking. MEA plans to continue operations of Ringwood hatchery on a smaller scale. The details are still being ironed out.

 

The future plan for MEA is to raise coho, browns, and rainbows out of Ringwood. Other species may be added in the future.

 

Metro East Anglers also assists MNR in the operation of the fish way at the Milne Dam.

 

In the past Metro East Anglers has raised rainbows, browns, atlantics, and some Chinook and coho out of a small hatchery on Parkview golf course. It was Metro East Anglers who revived the coho stocking program for Lake Ontario after the MNR ceased stocking of cohos.

 

Sounds like some great work you are involved with. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

Do you know if Chinooks are released off of the Skyway Pier in Ham/Burl?

 

As staffman said, I suspected that these fish would not have been natural reproduction Salmon.

I am going to check for the clipped fins in the next little bit, I will post my findngs for anyone interested.

 

Thanks again,

 

Clarence

[TerryC]

Of the 30 or so Chinoooks I saw this afternoon, all had a clipped adipose fin.

 

Mystery solved, I think.

 

Thanks to those who replied.

 

Clarence

[craigdritchie]

Pretty much every creek, stream and ditch flowing into the Great Lakes gets some trout and salmon run up it. In some cases, these can be substantial runs of fish. They can be either wild fish, or strays from other systems, or a combination of both.

 

Despite what we like to think about trout and salmon returning to their stocking sites, a lot of fish do stray and wind up in other rivers. John may have more detailed info on numbers, but I have always understood it to be a pretty significant proportion of the number stocked/hatched. Like, up to half.

 

Over the years I have spent a lot of time exploring places where I just thought fish should be, even though they were never stocked there. And today, some of those locations have become my main fishing spots. The biggest reason is that by not appearing on the stocking lists, these places fly under the radar, and most people never think to fish them. I have one place I've been fishing for about six years now, and I've never seen another person there. There aren't huge runs of fish either, but enough to keep me happy and I have them all to myself. It's awesome. I can show up at noon on a Saturday and know no one has touched them since my last visit. It sure beats lining up at the popular spots with 20,000 of your closest friends every Saturday morning.

 

Clarence - good on you for finding a spot like that. Find some others and keep the info quiet. You'll have great fishing for years to come.

[dave524]

Gotta be careful though Craig, almost all of these small creeks, ditches and stream, many unnamed, close on the regular closer the end of Sept. and don't open till the l4th Sat in April, at least for salmon and trout. Think it is only Northumberland and Durham that states all water south of a line is an extended season, west of TO and the south shore it is only specifically named creeks that have the extended season, bummer

[craigdritchie]

Gotta be careful though Craig, almost all of these small creeks, ditches and stream, many unnamed, close on the regular closer the end of Sept. and don't open till the l4th Sat in April, at least for salmon and trout. Think it is only Northumberland and Durham that states all water south of a line is an extended season, west of TO and the south shore it is only specifically named creeks that have the extended season, bummer

Dave,

 

I (purposefully) never said what lake they flow into .... many of my spots have 12 month seasons for salmon and trout.

[John Bacon]

Sounds like some great work you are involved with. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

Do you know if Chinooks are released off of the Skyway Pier in Ham/Burl?

 

As staffman said, I suspected that these fish would not have been natural reproduction Salmon.

I am going to check for the clipped fins in the next little bit, I will post my findngs for anyone interested.

 

Thanks again,

 

Clarence

 

The site for Hamilton is listed as the Burlington Canal. I assume that either is, or is close to the the Skyway Pier. I guess they would search for near by creeks and rivers when they don't find suitable spawning habitat there.

[TerryC]

The site for Hamilton is listed as the Burlington Canal. I assume that either is, or is close to the the Skyway Pier. I guess they would search for near by creeks and rivers when they don't find suitable spawning habitat there.

It is all making sense now, Thanks again for the good feedback.

 

Clarence

[GoneFishin]

If you are seeing salmon spawning, they most likely not from any stocking efforts in Ontario.. Lake O has a healthy population of wild fish (I'm sure Craig or John can set me straight on numbers)

 

I have read the survival rate of salmon bread in our eastern rivers are very low and not enough to support it self. Most of the Salmon stocked into our lakes and follow there instincts to travel up river and spawn but I'm sure it differs from river to river. I find it hard to believe, especially when it comes to stocking salmon over trout in majority....

Edited October 25, 2011 by GoneFishin

[John Bacon]

 

Despite what we like to think about trout and salmon returning to their stocking sites, a lot of fish do stray and wind up in other rivers. John may have more detailed info on numbers, but I have always understood it to be a pretty significant proportion of the number stocked/hatched. Like, up to half.

 

 

I don't have specifics on 'stray rates' for salmon. I would assume that stocked fish are more likely to stray than naturals. The stocked fish have spent more time in the hatchery than the river they are stocked in. That is just my opinion though, not based on any study.