Pike vs. Musky Questions

[Andy]

So I have read that musky fishing in Kawartha's will suffer as pike make their way into the system, and that it is because of a competition for food, pike spawning a couple weeks earlier and feeding off the musky fry, and the muskies in the Kawartha's being a strain that are not genetcally used to sharing water with pike. (as opposed to the musky in Lake Nipissing, for example) Will the pike population explode at first and then level off in the Kawartha's?

 

But how is it that a lake like Lake St. Clair isn't crawling with pike (or is it?), and the musky are thriving. To look at it, Lake St. clair should be perfect for pike, yet it is not a dominant species. Is it stocked with muskies on the American side? Is this what gives the muskies an edge? Or does it have more to do with lake depth and water temeratures? Lake Simcoe is another example of a lake where muskies were supposedly plentiful years ago, while co-existing with pike. Why were they able to flourish until overfishing and pollution decimated the population? Was this a different strain than what is in the Kawarha's now? It seems like there is a lot of musky stocking in many U.S states, and it seems to work down there. Or does it? Will the time come that this will be req'd to maintain a healthy musky population in the Kawartha's? I'm quite curious to see what happens to the stocking program in Simcoe.

Just wondering.

Andy

Edited October 3, 2011 by Andy

[mike rousseau]

I've heard the difference in musky strains determines spawning habitat...

 

So as long as the musky and pike aren't using the same areas... The musky fry aren't eaten...

 

From what I've seen musky on the st.lawrence spawn in bays... Mostly

 

And the pike go up creeks and rivers...

 

From what I've heard...

 

There are pike and musky in the st.lawrence... Different areas have more or less of each...

 

And in one area I know of... Pike are almost non existent... We used to catch a bunch every year... Now I can count on one hand how many I catch...

 

Now I'm bableing on...

[Pigeontroller]

Unfortunately, I can't answer many of your questions...You do have a good understanding of the basics, as I do...What I can answer is, many US Lakes are stocked with Muskie that are not expected to reproduce successfully, meaning its a "put and take" fishery, much like the Pacific Salmon/Rainbow Trout fishery that exists in some of the Great Lakes. All Canadian(Ontario) Muskie populations are wild and self-sustaining, though there have been stocking programs at times over the last 100 years...

 

This makes me think we need to have Jason Borwick (Aurora District Biologist, O.M.N.R.) come out to speak at a Muskies Canada meeting soon, (guests are always welcome at MCI meetings).

 

I will see if I can arrange it and post smething here since there have been some questions about the L.S.M.R.P. here recently.

[Andy]

I've heard the difference in musky strains determines spawning habitat...

 

So as long as the musky and pike aren't using the same areas... The musky fry aren't eaten...

 

From what I've seen musky on the st.lawrence spawn in bays... Mostly

 

And the pike go up creeks and rivers...

 

From what I've heard...

 

There are pike and musky in the st.lawrence... Different areas have more or less of each...

 

And in one area I know of... Pike are almost non existent... We used to catch a bunch every year... Now I can count on one hand how many I catch...

 

Now I'm bableing on...

No, not at all. Quite interesting actually. Maybe pike fall victim to cycles of one kind of another too.

[ehg]

So I have read that musky fishing in Kawartha's will suffer as pike make their way into the system.

Will the pike population explode at first and then level off in the Kawartha's?

 

But how is it that a lake like Lake St. Clair isn't crawling with pike (or is it?), and the musky are thriving. To look at it, Lake St. clair should be perfect for pike, yet it is not a dominant species.

 

Seems that a very distinct type of Great Lakes spotted musky has found its niche on St.Clair.

 

I guess Canal Lake and Dalrymple have been overrun with pike, being smaller, shallow lakes.

Balsam is next but we will have to wait and see. Still mostly nice Kawartha muskies in Balsam, tiger musky and pike are a little ways behind still.

 

This is a situation that will take some time to be clear. Hope something will be learned by the efforts put into Simcoe.

[mike rousseau]

No, not at all. Quite interesting actually. Maybe pike fall victim to cycles of one kind of another too.

 

the weirdest part of this "no pike" zone im refering to... 10 km either way and there are plenty of pike... big ones too...

 

we used to get pike grabbing our perch... now its musky...

 

in a day of largemouth fishing... id get 5-10 pike... now... im surprised to get one...

 

my dad thinks it has to do with farming along the creeks and rivers in the direct area... this "no pike" zone... every creek and river runs threw miles and miles of farmland... he figures the modern chemicals in fertilizer mixed in the spring run off are contaminating the pike eggs before they have a chance to hatch...

 

the areas 10km either way... have rivers and creeks without farming... or at least mass crop farming... i dont think cows pollute too much...

 

kinda interesting...

 

 

 

all this aside.... there are very healthy populations of pike and musky living together in the st.lawrence... i think these fish can share waters when there are abundant areas to spawn and plenty of forage...

 

but in a small lake... lets say with one creek in and one out... not much for panfish...i believe pike and musky will definatly step on each others...em...fins

 

survival of the fittest

[glen]

Canal Lake and Lake Dalrymple used to be great for muskie now they have been overrun with pike.

 

Use this as an example as to what is happening to the Kawartha muskie.

 

Without stocking of muskie in the Kawarthas there wont be enough muskie to fish for.

[Familyfisherman]

Interesting thread guys -- I'd be glad to know if Jason Borwick will be speaking at any meetings close to Barrie -- well worth the time!

[Musky or Specks]

Some reading info

 

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish/muskellunge/muskie_northern.html

 

Also look up some of the work by DR Bernard LeBeau who theorized that there are two distinct sub-species of musky. Lucustrine(Kawartha) And Riverine(Great Lakes)

[Musky or Specks]

Canal Lake and Lake Dalrymple used to be great for muskie now they have been overrun with pike.

 

Use this as an example as to what is happening to the Kawartha muskie.

 

Without stocking of muskie in the Kawarthas there wont be enough muskie to fish for.

Stocking Musky will never solve the problem your treating a symptom not the cause.

[ehg]

Some reading info

 

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish/muskellunge/muskie_northern.html

 

Also look up some of the work by DR Bernard LeBeau who theorized that there are two distinct sub-species of musky. Lucustrine(Kawartha) And Riverine(Great Lakes)

 

Interesting reading about Lebeau's research.

He mentions that Riverine musky exist with pike (Great Lakes, Mississippi drainage, English River drainage, Rainy R. etc...). The Riverine musky spawn a little deeper due to always existing with pike and adapting this way.

Seems the Lacustrine musky are in Kawarthas and most of Wisconsin. In these places musky spawn in shallow bays. Now with pike entering said spots they spawn two weeks earlier in same place and this is problematic.

 

Interesting huge musky Lebeau caught on Wabigoon in link below.

http://www.bonnybay.com/howbigdomuskiesget.htm

[outllaw]

HI.lake st clair has a very fishable pike population. it is in the eastern end where theres marshland and creeks,waterflows that are not heavily fertilized. the muskies rule the open waters,until pike are larger. we catch many 10-14 lb pike in open waters trolling in summer months. luckily l.s.c. has it all.. eco-systems dictate what species will thrive.

habitat,,forage base as brief examples.

[bubbles]

I agree LSC has a healthy population of both.

 

My question - why would pike over run the Musky population and not the other way around?

[Roy]

I agree LSC has a healthy population of both.

 

My question - why would pike over run the Musky population and not the other way around?

 

There are many reasons but one of the most important (to me anyway) is that pike fry attach themselves to weeds for support whereas muskie fry just fall to the bottom making them more vulnerable to other species.

[Musky or Specks]

Pike spawn earlier and the emerged pike are much larger than the emerging musky and predation of the young musky is significant.

[F_ast]

One thing I have notices since the introduction of pike to the kawarthas (namely Balsam) is there was an exposion of pike that seemed to be everywhere and they seemed to be caught at will. This year, I have yet to catch one.

 

I am not saying they are not there, I am saying that with the high populations and size of the Balsam lake muskie, maybe the pike are congregating into separate areas away from the muskie populations. Maybe this says very little about the spawn periods, but I have not seen a declined number of muskie yet.

 

As far as the LSC goes, the strain of muskie found there are a stain that have been exposed to pike populations "forever" << Going to use that lightly. From what I understand, muskie that co-excist with pike pipulations actually spawn twice a season. Shallow and deep.

[glen]

"Stocking Musky will never solve the problem your treating a symptom not the cause."

 

 

So stocking muskie in Canal and Dalrymple wont give me muskie to catch? What will? That is what i care about.

 

 

It's nice to see you are concerned about Balsom lake. But the kawartha muskie are screwed.

Edited October 4, 2011 by glen

[Musky or Specks]

"Stocking Musky will never solve the problem your treating a symptom not the cause."

 

 

So stocking muskie in Canal and Dalrymple wont give me muskie to catch? What will? That is what i care about.

 

 

It's nice to see you are concerned about Balsom lake. But the kawartha muskie are screwed.

Well it would suck but how bout starting over. Prevent pike from being introduced. Remove as many native fish to a facility as you can. Poison the entire lake and start over. It generally only takes a week for the poison to be gone. Make it catch and release until the fishery totally recovers. A pretty expensive en devour but then again so is stocking musky every year from here to eternity. As far as Dalrymple and Canal go they are both considered part of the Kawartha's Just like a lot of the waters up Haliburton way. So to say Kawartha musky are screwed condemns not only Balsam but your choice of lakes as well.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Musky or Specks

[glen]

Canal and Dalrymple are an example of what is happening.

 

No one has started over. Prevented pike from being introduced. Poisoned the entire lake and started over in Canal or Dalrymple.

 

I bet no one will in any of the other lakes either.

[Musky or Specks]

Canal and Dalrymple are an example of what is happening.

 

No one has started over. Prevented pike from being introduced. Poisoned the entire lake and started over in Canal or Dalrymple.

 

I bet no one will in any of the other lakes either.

No they won't, the Government is to short sighted and doesn't think in the long term. If somehow we could have a hatchery supplied by only Great Lake strain musky it would be interesting to see if you could get a situation where you have coexisting esocids where you had fish that couldnt before. Dalrymple is a small enough lake with less urban impact and would make a much more suitable experiment for this kind of thing way, more so than Simcoe. The bad news period is that once an invasive species is introduced it's over its just a matter of the hour glass running out of sand.

[glen]

Like i said screwed.

 

 

So stocking would give me some fish to catch in these lakes.

[Musky or Specks]

Like i said screwed.

 

 

So stocking would give me some fish to catch in these lakes.

Sure just a great way to waste fisheries money. So instead we'll have a musky tag for Lake Dalrymple and we'll charge anyone who wants to fish for musky there an extra 250 dollars that won't cover the cost but hey you want to catch musky right?

[glen]

So stocking muskie is not successful in the states?

[Musky or Specks]

We can't afford to throw money at our problems they way they do. They have a tax at the manufacturing level that generates billions of dollars earmarked for fisheries. Its unconstitutional to have a tax like that here in Canada. Its the way politicians are able to hide their spending from you and it's entrenched in our constitution.

[Andy]

Sure just a great way to waste fisheries money. So instead we'll have a musky tag for Lake Dalrymple and we'll charge anyone who wants to fish for musky there an extra 250 dollars that won't cover the cost but hey you want to catch musky right?

I have no idea how they do it in the States, but the impression I have is that they have no problem putting money into "put and take" lakes, even lakes where the musky have no chance of natural reproduction. I'm sure they have criteria that helps select certain lakes, but I haven't looked into it enough to know what the criteria would be. Maybe I'll ask on an American board some rainy day.