consulting charges

[waterlooxu]

Hi guys I'm new to Canada and also new to this cool community,learned a lot in fishing and other areas..

 

OK here is the story. 4 months ago i was trying to apply for a trademark. So i find an local agent office on internet ,made a call for an appointment.

 

when i got into the office i was not informed that it was charged since i was in.

 

the appointment took about 20 minutes,I asked some questions(mainly for their price) , filled a form and went back home.

 

Then i received an email ,asked me to sign a retainer agreement. i did not reply because i thought their price is too high,if compared with applying by myself on internet.

 

so i thought all was gone,till i received a 300+ bill.

 

so i just want to ask is it normal here? i was not told i will be charged all the way( maybe its not necessary?)... I was from china,not familiar with things like this here,but in china they would not charge you for a consulting before you signed ..

 

Really appreciate any suggestions or advice here,Thanks guys!

 

 

[irishfield]

$3500 retainer up front to start the patent process on my daughters pelvic exoskeleton device. $600 / hr for a Engineering Technologist and $350 / hr for his flunky to search patents and "consult".. and they farmed it out to another guy after the fact to do it all anyhow. Then added that fee... to their time and with about 4 man hours a piece it was gone. I'm in the wrong gig....

[jace]

sometimes doing things on your own isn't good if you're not familiar with all the bases. On a related note, i looked at a friend's company legal bill with itemization and one of the firms was billing at $12000/hour X 4 hrs on this bill. Not a bad way to make an average person's entire annual income. so $300 for 20min isn't so bad.

[aplumma]

Consulting is the sale of information it is what they are selling. When you go in to their business you are using the product they offer. For the future if you call a lawyer and ask him a question he will track the time he is on the phone with you and send a note to billing to bill you for that time. If an intern brings him a piece of paper for him to read pertaining to your account he will also bill you for that time. A retainer is just an amount that you have on deposit for him to draw on in the process of doing the action you have asked him to do. It is no different than going to a restaurant and eating the bread and then saying the bread is free since I didn't order from the menu. They do this because people will by nature shop around and if they did not charge for window shoppers they would lose quite a bit of billable time. I am a plumber by profession and if I offered free house calls and free estimates I would not have much to show for a hard days work.

 

 

 

Art

[spincast]

Not really enough detail here to tell for sure, but most reputable lawyers / consultants will provide the original consult for free to determine if they can help you. In your situation, you would have to look into all the fine print. If, somewhere on the internet page or other information you were provided before your meeting it states charges will be incurred and at a specific rate or charge equal to this bill, you owe them.

That being said, I suspect he fact they asked you to sign the retainer agreement after the fact, and then presented you the invoice, is indicative they are on less than firm ground if you ignore them

Likewise - a $300 bill? A sum that strikes me as designed to be small enough that many people would pay, rather than fight.

 

In the absence of an implied or explicit agreement to pay for the services, I would not pay. Let them try to collect. Mind you - this may result in you having to manage your credit score - which is precisely why many less than honest practitioners select a moderately low dollar value. The cost to contain the damage exceeds the bill.

 

Just as a note in this type of situation - before you talk, share or meet anyone on this type of situation, make sure you have an enforceable signed non disclosure agreement; then ask for a specific fee schedule, signed by the person you will be meeting with. Only then move to the next step. Hope it works out the best for you. BTW - is it fishing related ?

[waterlooxu]

$3500 retainer up front to start the patent process on my daughters pelvic exoskeleton device. $600 / hr for a Engineering Technologist and $350 / hr for his flunky to search patents and "consult".. and they farmed it out to another guy after the fact to do it all anyhow. Then added that fee... to their time and with about 4 man hours a piece it was gone. I'm in the wrong gig....

this is so sad

[waterlooxu]

sometimes doing things on your own isn't good if you're not familiar with all the bases. On a related note, i looked at a friend's company legal bill with itemization and one of the firms was billing at $12000/hour X 4 hrs on this bill. Not a bad way to make an average person's entire annual income. so $300 for 20min isn't so bad.

thank you buddy you made me feel better

[irishfield]

That's just the retainer to get them started waterlooxu.... the next "ask" was $12,500 "banked" to proceed, after the patent search was done, to ATTEMPT to obtain a patent for my daughters invention. We decided at that point that her getting her Masters by designing this device, as part of her thesis, was good enough and where we ended it. With only 3 people in Canada and few elsewhere in this unique situation of having an unattached leg there would be no hope of ever recouping the costs going forward. This isn't my first rodeo either... I have a few patents.. but you have to look at the end picture and see if there's any sense in going forward.

[waterlooxu]

Consulting is the sale of information it is what they are selling. When you go in to their business you are using the product they offer. For the future if you call a lawyer and ask him a question he will track the time he is on the phone with you and send a note to billing to bill you for that time. If an intern brings him a piece of paper for him to read pertaining to your account he will also bill you for that time. A retainer is just an amount that you have on deposit for him to draw on in the process of doing the action you have asked him to do. It is no different than going to a restaurant and eating the bread and then saying the bread is free since I didn't order from the menu. They do this because people will by nature shop around and if they did not charge for window shoppers they would lose quite a bit of billable time. I am a plumber by profession and if I offered free house calls and free estimates I would not have much to show for a hard days work.

 

 

 

Art

Thanks for reply. Yes i totally understand that the fee is for their consulting and time, i just felt a little kind of strange because they never told me they would charge me, or told me anything about the charge rate before or after i got into their office.I thought if there is a fee i should be award of,but i was not, the only charge rate i could find was on the retainer agreement i received the second day. that's why i post this topic, maybe in Canada its not necessary to tell you that you are charged and how much you will be charged, and what you gonna do is pay for it even you have no idea you would be charged , i mean ,it's your responsibility to get it known..or that this kind situation is normal everyone who lives here is familiar with it?

I really don't mean any offence that they should not charge me ,it's just that i did not meet this kind of situation,. when i first landed and bought a house here, i had a lot of consults with agents and lawyers they did not charge me for consulting ,and this also happens in china ,so ,i just not get used to it.

[waterlooxu]

Not really enough detail here to tell for sure, but most reputable lawyers / consultants will provide the original consult for free to determine if they can help you. In your situation, you would have to look into all the fine print. If, somewhere on the internet page or other information you were provided before your meeting it states charges will be incurred and at a specific rate or charge equal to this bill, you owe them.

That being said, I suspect he fact they asked you to sign the retainer agreement after the fact, and then presented you the invoice, is indicative they are on less than firm ground if you ignore them

Likewise - a $300 bill? A sum that strikes me as designed to be small enough that many people would pay, rather than fight.

 

In the absence of an implied or explicit agreement to pay for the services, I would not pay. Let them try to collect. Mind you - this may result in you having to manage your credit score - which is precisely why many less than honest practitioners select a moderately low dollar value. The cost to contain the damage exceeds the bill.

 

Just as a note in this type of situation - before you talk, share or meet anyone on this type of situation, make sure you have an enforceable signed non disclosure agreement; then ask for a specific fee schedule, signed by the person you will be meeting with. Only then move to the next step. Hope it works out the best for you. BTW - is it fishing related ?

how can i win a fight against a lawyer LOL .

Thanks for your remind ,i will keep that in mind...yes you gotta live and learn right?

And yes it is fishing products,still in samples, would you like to give them a try? i can mail some to you for free.

[waterlooxu]

That's just the retainer to get them started waterlooxu.... the next "ask" was $12,500 "banked" to proceed, after the patent search was done, to ATTEMPT to obtain a patent for my daughters invention. We decided at that point that her getting her Masters by designing this device, as part of her thesis, was good enough and where we ended it. With only 3 people in Canada and few elsewhere in this unique situation of having an unattached leg there would be no hope of ever recouping the costs going forward. This isn't my first rodeo either... I have a few patents.. but you have to look at the end picture and see if there's any sense in going forward.

why the fee is so high? in china its about 2000RMB less than CAD400 all together.if you want to maintain 10 years its another 2000RMB that's all you need to pay.....

[irishfield]

I'm sure there are cheaper places to get such a thing done, if you get away from downtown GTA firms. I just went to where we've always gone before and Bay St doesn't come cheap, unfortunately. As j ace noted... a similar thing... a guy that I maintain an airplane for, his wife is a Chartered Accountant and her downtown firm bills her out at $8000/hr! She of course gets much less than that herself.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm surprised to hear they even patent stuff in China as they have no problems copying our patented items and putting them out for retail all over the world... with no financial recourse at our end.

Edited November 22, 2014 by irishfield