If you own land, you will find this interesting

[Big Cliff]

A friend just sent this to me, thought I should share it.

 

Crown lLand Pattent Grant

 

John F, can you comment on this?

[JohnF]

A friend just sent this to me, thought I should share it.

 

Crown lLand Pattent Grant

 

John F, can you comment on this?

 

 

Of course. When am I ever at a loss for words on this stuff?

 

That's fairly arcane stuff they're talking about. Perhaps arcane isn't the right word. More like obscure. And to be honest I'm not positive I get it yet but I think I'm right.

 

If you were to go to the local registry office and discover that your property was registered under the Registry System as opposed to the Land Titles System you could ask for a copy of the "abstract" on your land. It would be a list of "instruments" (documents registered against or pertaining to your property) and would go all the way back to the Root of Title or the original Crown Patent when the land was first conveyed to private ownership from Crown holdings. If it's on Land Titles then you wouldn't be able to see that unless the property has never changed hands. The point is that most land in Ontario, as far as I know, came into private ownership through a Crown Patent or Grant. Either way you'll only get the original language by ordering the report as described in the article. I suppose a few of you might still have in the family archives all the paperwork from a few hundred years ago (in the south) or more recently in some of the northern Ontario areas.

 

As you know when we own real property in Ontario in fee simple we not only hold title to the real estate (land and buildings) but to certain "rights" that "run with the land". In some cases those rights have been limited by law. Zoning by laws are a good example.

 

A good example for this forum would be the broad assumption made by most fisherpersons that all watercourse beds are public domain and the owner of surrounding lands cannot restrict access provided we don't step onto the land. I'm pretty sure this article speaks directly to the exceptions to this general rule, among other things. If the original Crown Grant included specifically the lands, water courses etc then the owner may well have a legitimate claim to exclusive control over the riverbed. Evidently the language wasn't always consistent and that left open the door for our lawmakers over the years to adopt certain civil law that claimed the waterways for general use and access and these laws were interpreted by many to mean they applied to "all" waterways. If you own a piece of land with a waterway and you're concerned about people trespassing in the water you could order a copy of the original Crown Patent and get a good lawyer to interpret the language therein. You might find you can in fact refuse to allow folks to come into your creek.

 

The same goes for some of the other things happening over and under your land. I have no idea how this might apply to mining companies tunnelling under your land or hydro lines & airports with flight paths over your lands. Some of these are provided for in the relevant utility legislation but perhaps the original Crown Grant language overrides the newer legislation depending on the language used. I'm not sure about that. I suppose it could even be applied to expropriation and taxes but again I have absolutely no idea how that kind of interpretation would be received by the good folks in our government bureaucracies. And, as the article says, a lot depends on the date of the original registration.

 

Sure sounds like it would be interesting to order a copy of the oiginal grant for your property, even if you're in a modern subdivision created under a Registered Plan of Subdivision. Then, if you find out you have got more rights than your neighbours, good luck with the fight you'll probably have with the gov't and just about every relevant authority. I assume though that most or all of the "rights" would have been removed from the title at the point where the new lots were created.

 

Interesting piece, Cliff. Thanks. I hope I haven't led you astray with my interpretation.

 

JF

Edited June 20, 2010 by JohnF

[JohnF]

I just reread the article and was reminded that this fight against the erosion of property rights is something the various real estate associations have been battling for years. Unfortunately it's tough to get folks onside with a battle about things that appear to be already carved in stone. This article is a great example of how property owners can join together to demand the rights to which they are entitled. I'm not here to overthrow the gov't or anything like that, but there are too many assumptions and preconceived notions floating around that conspire to help our various gov'ts herd us along like little complacent sheep. Sometimes we need to stand up and demand what is legally ours. If we don't know our rights then we'll never know when to stand up and demand 'em.

 

Not that I'm a big gun guy but the IRA second amendment fight in the States is a classic example of this kind of action. It's also a classic example of arcane language leading to misinterpretation, even in the courts.

 

Again, thanks Cliff. That article should be thought provoking for all real property owners.

 

JF

[irishfield]

Thanks for that Cliff!!

[vinnimon]

Thanks john for the info.

Everytime time I ask an mnr officer,I get a hesitation then some sort of answer that is always different in some manner.When I call the office,I get the same.

For example,Im in my canoe going down river/creek,I come to a culvert with a fence across it.I have to enter the property to get back on track!Im trespasssing!But the land owner made it that way.So I have no choice.And in that I only stay within 3 feet of the shore line.

 

 

[JohnF]

Thanks john for the info.

Everytime time I ask an mnr officer,I get a hesitation then some sort of answer that is always different in some manner.When I call the office,I get the same.

For example,Im in my canoe going down river/creek,I come to a culvert with a fence across it.I have to enter the property to get back on track!Im trespasssing!But the land owner made it that way.So I have no choice.And in that I only stay within 3 feet of the shore line.

 

I'm not absolutely certain I'm right but it makes sense given the article Cliff posted.

 

JF

[vinnimon]

From A conversation I had with a co,3 feet of any shore should be given for emergency and safe passage to continue your journey! Including rest!As for owning any waters except land locked,rivers and creeks are always moving! If a landowner blocks passage then he/she should allow for some sort of passage.Ive seen this first hand in the menonite area,creek fenced off due to the herd.I was fishing the culverts last spring in that same area.A dutch farmer came barreling down with horse and carraige.I thought he was going to give me heck,But to my dismay he told me to go the holes behind his barn.

He explained to me that he want the cows to be relaxed as possible.

What a nice gent,I will take him upon the offer next time around.

Maybe I leave some home cooked italian lasagnia or a bottle of wine.For his kindness!

Cant blame him either,lookin out for his herd.

I wonder if he will sell some milk and eggs?

[lew]

 

Maybe I leave some home cooked italian lasagnia or a bottle of wine.For his kindness!

 

 

You sound like a pretty nice guy Vinnie !!

[Big Cliff]

From A conversation I had with a co,3 feet of any shore should be given for emergency and safe passage to continue your journey! Including rest!As for owning any waters except land locked,rivers and creeks are always moving! If a landowner blocks passage then he/she should allow for some sort of passage.Ive seen this first hand in the menonite area,creek fenced off due to the herd.I was fishing the culverts last spring in that same area.A dutch farmer came barreling down with horse and carraige.I thought he was going to give me heck,But to my dismay he told me to go the holes behind his barn.

He explained to me that he want the cows to be relaxed as possible.

What a nice gent,I will take him upon the offer next time around.

Maybe I leave some home cooked italian lasagnia or a bottle of wine.For his kindness!

Cant blame him either,lookin out for his herd.

I wonder if he will sell some milk and eggs?

 

Now those are the kinds of jestures that get you invited back and form life long bonds. Good for you in understanding his concerns and respecting them, looks like you'll have a place to fish for a long time!