Kitchen remodel

[backbay]

My last kitchen we did granite, using HD, who contracted with Stoneworx from Woodbridge. They are also a provider of Zodiac, another quartz material, which was almost our choice. The counter was J shaped, and when the guys arrived, they had cut one of the pieces so the grain didn't flow properly. We had them re-cut it, which they did, no questions asked.

We used a cabinet maker I knew, who built custom ash cabinets.

 

Ikea has come a long way, and some of my reno junkie friends have not only been happy with the cabinets of late, but Ikea's appliances, too. They'll build to your space. Not solid wood, but that's a different snack bracket.

 

Corian is a beautiful material, and while it won't beat your knives up like granite will, it will show signs of wear over time. It may be possible to rejuvenate the surface, but I don't know for sure. The decision for us to go with granite is that we simply found, after looking at about 100, a sheet of rock we really liked.

[cynmar]

The only thing I would have changed now would be to go with a quartz countertop. Like the looks of them.

 

Bill

[irishfield]

Ya im thinking of a corian material

 

When we did our kitchen in 1995/96 Corian was a choice and, although I'm in the plastics business, I couldn't go with it as I found it too soft and easy to mark or cut with even a normal dinner knife. We went with Swanstone and it still looks like new 16 years+ later.

[muskymike]

Please do some more research or shoot me a PM before making choices based on what everyone is saying in here. I am not trying to discredit anyone's information given, but there is a lot of false information flying around in this thread, especially with counter materials.

 

There are holes in almost every reply. Please send me a PM.

[backbay]

Mike, I'm not trying to start anything, but please share your thoughts!

[Bunker]

come on Muskie mike please share your thoughts.....

[Jigger]

Edit: What do you guys think about poured counters? All ive seen manufactured options?

Edited April 17, 2012 by Jigger

[muskymike]

And the concrete board is really "wonder board" a little different than the concrete and mesh stuff. It's a good underlayment for ceramic tile

 

Wonderboard is fine, so is 5/8" ply, rhinoboard, gatorboard or any other substrate as long as its installed according to either the manufactures installation methods or minimum code ie. 5/8" ply. What is the structure under your underlay?

 

 

Ikea has sharp looking stuff, but I'd just be weary of the quality. If you're tough on the doors they will not hold up.

 

Depending on the doors you buy, you can purchase a foil door from HD/Ikea or one from a "custom manufacturer" and they will be pretty much the same. This is where it needs to be specified a bit more.

 

A solid door from HD or Ikea or any other box store for that matter will be made of lower grade material then a custom cabinet company. Now, this doesn't mean if you buy a custom kitchen from company X it will be great, there are some shady companies out there. A good custom cabinet company will you very high quality wood, their joining will be done by hand on a machine, not automated, every door will be assembled and visually inspected before getting to you. Production cabinets, even though follow the same process, there is 80% less care taken.

 

 

if you did all that you're capable enough to do the easier stuff (flooring and wall and base cabinets)

you could go to Depot or Lowes and sit down and steal their ideas then do it yourself

 

Best answer. Its really the smartest idea as well. There is no commitment on your part. Go see 3 or 4 places, get their idea's and from there, plan what YOU want.

 

 

never used a custom kitchen co., I've done an Ikea at home and a depot at the cottage, seemed like alot of $ for crappy cabinets of poor quality, for the Canadians reading this, I liked Ikea better than depot

 

Crappy cabinets are just that. Due to poor planning, rushing, bad installation, and poor care and use. All boxes from the box stores are made pretty much the same. They are all doweled, you choose to glue and they all will be the same cheap plastic/metal parts. Doors will be similar at whatever box store you buy them from, be it wood or foil.

 

 

My take. Is that if the kitchen is of standard dimensions, and you don't require custom sized cabinets, you would save around 25% at least if you buy from Lowes/HD for similar quality. Especially if you wait till kitchens go on sale.

 

Don't go to big box for counters. For either stone or laminate, you can do better going direct to the manufacturer an Ikea dishwasher and he was even given a $1,500 gift card for Ikea. The quality is supposed to be good.

 

Again, very true. You can not buy a kitchen unless you are ready to customize them yourself, if you go with a box store. They are meant for simple kitchens. Now, you can make whatever you buy into a dream kitchen, which is solely based on your own perception, but they are traditionally available for a standard Galley, U-shaped, single wall, L or infill walls. If you have angles, you want to shorten cabinets for OTR's, stagger uppers, have a non-standard crown and valance, jogs in walls where you will have varying depths of cabs, go custom unless you are very handy.

 

Counters, DO NOT BUY from a box, you will save by going direct. Unless its bundled in, do not purchase stone from them.

 

 

Schluter Ditra or the likewise will work best..I wouldnt rely on cement board at all.

 

Uncoupling membranes, if you have a sound structure, not needed, but fantastic building practice. All Schluter products cost more, but are great, handy systems but definitely not required.

 

 

Today, the big box store, and many custom kitchen companies are using the same materials.

The big box units are prefab, as opposed to taiored, but they all rely, for the most part on chipboard. Ther are not that many companies doing solid wood cabinets unless you have money to burn.

If you can, avoid the laminate counter surfaces. They really are junk.

 

Laminates are not junk, they serve their purpose, they are durable, come in a variety of colors/finishes and last. Yes, they are not as nice or classy as stone, but they are definitely not junk. 80% of the market is still laminate due to cost.

 

Ya im thinking of a corian material

 

It will date your kitchen. Its no longer used in kitchens for the most part. There are exceptions always, yes, but its not the counter of choice anymore. Its predominantly used in bathrooms now.

 

Some things to consider, if you cut, scrape or scratch Corian (brand name, not material, made by DuPont) it can be buffed out and repaired.

 

My wife is a retired kitchen designer. Her specialty was kitchens in the $30k range and up (+ appliances), but she also did many smaller ones too. She has ripped out many Big Box Store-style kitchens long before they were worn out because the owners hated them. They don't work well and they're not nice to look at.

 

The materials are OK (not great, but OK); it's the design/layout that often sucks and leaves people unhappy. Doors interfere with one another, the fridge interferes with stove, can't walk past the dishwasher with it open, can't put away dishes with the dishwasher open, etc. And then there's the esthetics; crown moldings end in mid-air, overly-large fillers, sinks not aligned under windows, bad colour choices, bad texture choices, upper cabinets not balanced side to side - stuff like that.

 

Unless you're an experienced kitchen installer who has seen the difference between a good design and a weak one, I'd suggest you get a pro to help with the layout.

 

Another thing she showed me that I'll never forget... Granite counters are truely beautiful to look at but they are a porous stone. People who cook a lot, and especially bakers who roll out dough on the counter, push food into the stone. My wife has shown me photos of huge mold colonies living on the underside of granite countertops. Like, several sq. metres of mold! More than 1cm thick. Really. And some suppliers will tell you to seal them. And reseal them 2x a year. That sealant is coming off, into your food. We'll think twice before putting in granite, despite how nice it looks.

 

All these points above are only valid on how you read them. Just like statistics, they can be spun however you want them. Most is due to poor planning, not poor kitchens. Some maybe bad kitchens but planning is key. Doors just dont open into other doors, interfere with appliances, or generally do not work well. All of those points could have been mitigated with proper planning.

 

Also, mold doesn't just grown on natural products, it needs sources. Moisture. Do not take this as all stone products. I have seen literally hundreds, if not thousands (and no, I am not exaggerating the numbers) of granite counters installed and never in the last 10 years have I heard of anyone having mold problems in a residential setting. Maintain your kitchen and you avoid problems. Let it fall to the wayside, and the mold on your stone will be the last of your worries.

 

Good call. The Corian brand is nice. Any of the solid surface materials are very good.

 

In our house, my wife used one called Acryflek and another called Cambria Quartz. The Cambria has real stone added to the acrylic so it looks and feels like stone. She had me install it in places like bathroom showers too. Waterproof, easy to clean, caulking adheres well, looks like granite. Nice stuff.

 

tbc

[muskymike]

Cambria is made of quartz, so it's just about the hardest, toughest, most maintenance-free counter on the market. The stuff is expensive, to be sure, but worth the extra if you want truly zero maintenance and higher resale value when you eventually sell the house.

 

Corian is a nice counter, but it's a comparatively soft material and will scratch fairly easily. The good news is you can fix minor blemishes with fine sandpaper. The bad news is, you'll wind up having to do exactly that every now and then. In spite of what Dupont says, it isn't even close to being maintenance free.

 

Granite, like all natural stone, is porous so it needs to be sealed at least once or twice a year. Even then, mold can still be a problem. Marble is even worse - it stains like crazy, and it's soft enough that scratches and wear are a real problem. It's fine in the bathroom, but don't even think about putting it in the kitchen.

 

I would disagree that laminate counters are total junk. They used to be, but they've come a long, long way in recent years. Modern laminates are tough and inexpensive, so they're a pretty good value for the money.

 

Quartz = product

Cabria, Caesarstone, Silestone etc are all brand names of Quartz. Most all of them are made in the same manufacturing plants and sold to whomever.

 

Quartz is crushed stone and epoxy compressed together with a few more additives. Firstly, throw the "stronger, more resilient" catch phrases out the window. Take care of your products and you will NEVER have a problem. Drop a bowling ball on a corner from 3' above the surface and yes, IT WILL BREAK. So will granite, so will laminate, so will Corian.

 

Good new, Quartz, since its man made, can be fixed if damaged. Will it stain? YES. If you leave a highly acidic product such as mustard or wine on it and leave it for a few days, the epoxy will stain. Good news is it can usually be removed.

IF you put a boiling pot directly from the stove onto it, yes, the epoxy will boil and pull the glue to the surface. You will then have blemishes. If you cut on it with a knife, press hard enough and yes, it will scratch.

 

Granite - natural stone and as noted above, is porous. It has capillaries or veins and will absorb liquids such as wine or mustard and it will stain. If you look at eye level, you can see the pits on the surface. If you don't wash it, yes, it will absorb the smallest of food particles. If you dont seal it twice a year, is it the end of the world, NO. Just make sure you hit it good the following application. It will stain easier then Quartz though.

Can you cut on it and not damage? Yes, can you put a boiling pot on it? Yes, if you break it can it be repaired? No, unless you glue it and are okay with a seam.

 

Marble and soapstones can and are used in a lot more kitchens now then in the past. There is a buffed (glossy) or honed finish. Yes they are soft, if you use a cutting board, you can enjoy the natural stone at its finest. If you spill, wipe it up, it will not stain immediately. Softer stones can be buffed out at a later date as well. If you choose soapstone (LOOKS INCREDIBLE) please take care of it and treat it as per your installers direction. Therefore, put it in a kitchen if you like it. 98% of people DO NOT have issues with softer stones.

 

3 points:

 

Granite - EVERY slab is different due to it being natural. Sizes will be smaller then other products.

 

Quartz - EVERY slab is the same. Consistency throughout your kitchens and islands. Larger standard sizes if you have oversized islands/peninsulas

 

Corian - Depending on color/selection can be either the same throughout or different per piece.

 

Craig also said what I mentioned above. Laminate is not a horrible product by any means.

 

As for price, Granite and Quartz should be relatively the same price. When companies mark them up, they are directed at you the buyer, the higher priced product is what they can sell you. They should be the same price or within $5/sf of each other. Other then a few choice colors in Granite such as Black Galaxy, or Antique Brown and a few others, all other surfaces should be under ONE price level. DO NOT believe that there are 3,4,5 or 7 different pricing levels. Its PURE markup. If they tell you different, its a lie.

 

My last kitchen we did granite, using HD, who contracted with Stoneworx from Woodbridge. They are also a provider of Zodiac, another quartz material, which was almost our choice. The counter was J shaped, and when the guys arrived, they had cut one of the pieces so the grain didn't flow properly. We had them re-cut it, which they did, no questions asked.

We used a cabinet maker I knew, who built custom ash cabinets.

 

Ikea has come a long way, and some of my reno junkie friends have not only been happy with the cabinets of late, but Ikea's appliances, too. They'll build to your space. Not solid wood, but that's a different snack bracket.

 

Corian is a beautiful material, and while it won't beat your knives up like granite will, it will show signs of wear over time. It may be possible to rejuvenate the surface, but I don't know for sure. The decision for us to go with granite is that we simply found, after looking at about 100, a sheet of rock we really liked.

 

Stoneworx is an Okay company. Personally, I would go to Maple Group to purchase (in Bolton). They are one of the largest distributors in the GTA. They will stand behind their product, stand behind their pricing, and their service will not be poor. There are a ton of Granite companies based out of Concord. Oakville has a few as well. (this is more for Canadians, sorry Blaque)

 

Some points to consider:

 

Most granite companies will include an offshore undermount sink in their price. Check the steel gauage.

 

Some companies give you 3 free holes in solid surfaces, others charge per hole.

Some make you pay to polish edges, on sinks and for slide in ranges. Some charge for baguettes (pieces behind stove).

Some companies reinforce with rebar and epoxy in front of sinks standard, others only when its considered a weak point.

Manage all seams, plan your kitchen so slabs fit. Ask for birdsmouth seams, and not straight butt edge.

 

consider buying boxes from a box store/ikea and doors from a custom company.

 

There are many different methods of construction of the drawers as well. Some use think mel, some use thick, some have metal sides, some are double fronts. The more expensive the cabinets, the better the hardware.

 

Top line (drawers at top of every cab including false drawer fronts) are a nice addition but cost money. Some custom cabinet companies include this, others do not.

 

I want to finish with, I DO NOT work for a kitchen cabinet company, nor do I work for a solid surface company, I just like the buyer to cover all of their tracks before making a decision.

 

I am not posting this to step on anyone's toes, and I hope others can add to what I have put here, sorry for the longevity of this post as well. I am not discrediting anyone's information either. Feel free to correct anything I have said that is not accurate as well. I am open to it. There may be spelling mistakes, I apologize, I did not re-read my post.

 

If you want any more info Blaque, PM me.

 

Mike

[muskymike]

Primrose....

[blaque]

Wow musky......thanks for all the time u put into that. I read it all and appreciate the information and it certainly will help me along with the process