History Site

[Jonny]

Guys, please don't get political and get this thread locked.

 

This is posted for your information only.

 

It is a site I developed over several years when I was teaching, and used in class for reference...

 

http://www.personainternet.com/hjtoby/

Edited June 17, 2009 by Jocko

[JohnF]

Guys, please don't get political and get this thread locked.

 

This is posted for information your only.

 

It is a site I developed over several years when I was teaching, and used in class for reference...

 

http://www.personainternet.com/hjtoby/

 

Good job. Thanks for taking the time to get that together. For years I was confused by the obvious disconnect between historical accounts of the many world military actions and my understanding of Canadian involvement. If one went only by the historical accounts produced by non-Canadians it would be easy to assume we contributed nothing as a nation. But I was always aware that a proportionally high number of folks from my home town were in the military in the two wars in Europe, so for years I had the impression that my town must have been particularly heroic, like it was just St.Marys and Stratford with the Americans and the Brits against the Huns.

 

Thanks again

JF

[Jonny]

My wife and I spent a minute's silence at the Stratford War Memorial a few weeks ago, and then looked at the lists of names. Lots of names for what in those days would have been a pretty small town.

[JohnF]

My wife and I spent a minute's silence at the Stratford War Memorial a few weeks ago, and then looked at the lists of names. Lots of names for what in those days would have been a pretty small town.

 

I wish I'd known you were going to be here. My office is just a few minutes walk from there and my house about 15 minutes away.

 

My Mom was raised in Stratford and my Dad in St.Marys, 12 miles away. Between them they had 6 brothers who all served in Europe, as did my Dad. In fact, he was there when I was born and saw me for the first time months after I was born. Virtually every man I can remember from St.Marys did a stint. I'm not sure if the women ran the town during the war or what happened.

 

Of course I realized in later years that all of Canada really did it's share and have always been frustrated by the lack of recognition internationally accorded the Canadian military contribution through the years. It would be interesting to see a prorated comparison of all the major military contributions to the Allied side. I wonder how Canada would stand on a per capita measurement. We have generally remained about 1/10 the size of the US population-wise over the years.

 

Much of the Dutch emmigration to our part of the province came about because of the war. One meat packing plant in particular recruited a lot of workers from Holland after the owner made contacts while serving there.

 

JF

[Jonny]

I wish I'd known you were going to be here. My office is just a few minutes walk from there and my house about 15 minutes away.

 

We will be in Stratford again some time. We went to see Macbeth at the Festival Theater and we hope to go and see another Shakespearean play in the future. Also, we really liked Stratford. I happened upon a picture of downtown St. Mary's after we got home and we regretted not having seen it too. And the surrounding countryside and towns have a charm of their own. We will definitely be back.

 

Of course I realized in later years that all of Canada really did it's share and have always been frustrated by the lack of recognition internationally accorded the Canadian military contribution through the years.

 

That was one of the things that led me to create the "Johnny Canuck" site.

 

I think there might be something about the per capita representation in my site, but maybe not in hard numbers. I haven't reviewed it in a while.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Jocko

[JohnF]

We will be in Stratford again some time. We went to see Macbeth at the Festival Theater and we hope to go and see another Shakespearean play in the future. Also, we really liked Stratford. I happened upon a picture of downtown St. Mary's after we got home and we regretted not having seen it too. And the surrounding countryside and towns have a charm of their own. We will definitely be back.

 

St.Marys is a pretty little town. The rivers there were my playground as a kid. Let me know when you're coming this way again and perhaps we can meet for lunch, dinner or a drink.

 

JF

[Jonny]

Be glad to, thanks.

[bigugli]

Thank so much for including the Adriatic pirates in your collection. Tommy Fuller was quite a character, and spent much of his peacetime life promoting the naval reserve and sea cadets. One of his comrades from the Royal Navy was Tim Bligh. Guess who his forefather was?

 

Nice pic of HMCS Battleford at the bottom of your page.

[holdfast]

Be glad to, thanks.

 

Did I read it right? Your saying Conscripts were called Zombies. Shouldn't it read that those that Opposed Conscription were called Zombies. A term that an English Quebecer/Canadian would call a French Canadian that Opposed Conscription.

 

Also My departed Dear old Dad would tell me how he and his buddies would fight the Frenchies on the Boardwalk in Verdun Quebec because of the War. He felt that his Fishing buddy( His Uncle) that Died on the beaches of Normandy died in Vain thanks to these so called Zombies.

 

Also why the term Zombie. can anyone tell me why that word.

 

 

thanks for the Link. I love Canadian History. cant get enough especially what they don't teach in school because of Politics.

 

Just so you know. The Vandoos are respected around the world for their Soldier Skills when it comes to Battle. Ask any Korean Vet. Theyll tell you that the Chinese would never ever confront the Vandoos.

[Jonny]

I haven't found anything which sheds light on why the term "zombies" was coined. "Zombies" appears to have been a WWII term, and it appears to have applied specifically to conscripts, very few of whom were sent overseas.

 

From writing that I did for my site:

 

In reality, French-Canadian, and English-Canadian participation too, was better on a volunteer basis than when it was forced. When conscription was introduced, all recruitment actually declined. In World War Two conscripts were unflatteringly called "Zombies", because it was felt that all decently-motivated citizens were already doing their part, either in the armed services, or in essential war production.

 

I did some re-checking today and that appears to be valid.

 

Here are some pertinent quotes, from a variety of sources:

 

While units such as the Royal 22e Régiment, Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal, the Régiment de la Chaudière and the Régiment de Maisonneuve all had outstanding records during World War II, some feel that if they had been concentrated into the same brigade (as French-Canadians requested and as currently exists in the Canadian Armed Forces), it could have become a focus of pride for French-Canada, encouraging the war effort and political support in Quebec. These units were, however, distributed among the various English-speaking divisions of the Canadian Army overseas. Jack Granatstein in his book The Generals, points out that a shortage of French-speaking staff trained officers meant that any attempt to create an entire Francophone brigade would have likely ended in failure.

 

--

 

Actually only about 13,000 conscripts were sent overseas, and they went voluntarily. Most conscripts spent the war in Canada, as the government had promised they would. But they weren't alone. Only half of the Canadian Army made it overseas, and the majority of those who stayed home were volunteers. Similarly, two-thirds of the air force stayed in Canada also, though many were involved in the Commonweath air training plan. So while the Canadian army in Europe was in desperate straits for soldiers as the war drew to a close, it wasn't solely the fault of conscripts.

 

Also French Canada was not the only part of Canada to vote against conscription. It wasn't popular in Western Canada, and even Arthur Meighen, the pro-conscription former prime minister, was defeated in Toronto on the issue of conscription.

 

--

 

Many Canadians still did not support immediate conscription; there were a few riots in Montreal, although these were not on the same scale as the 1917 and 1918 riots. Even in Toronto, a strongly pro-conscription region, Conservative Arthur Meighen was defeated in a by-election after promising to help introduce conscription.

 

--

 

Few conscripts saw combat in Europe: only 2463 men reached units on the front lines. Out of these, 79 lost their lives. Politically, this was a successful gamble for King, as he avoided a drawn-out political crisis and remained in power until his retirement in 1948.

 

The NRMA men who refused to "go Active" were derisively called "Zombies" both in Canada and overseas; Farley Mowat recalls in his volumes of war memoirs savagely disliking those who wore the uniform but refused to make the same sacrifices he and his brothers-in-arms were called on to make in Italy and North-West Europe.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Jocko

[holdfast]

I haven't found anything which sheds light on why the term "zombies" was coined. "Zombies" appears to have been a WWII term, and it appears to have applied specifically to conscripts, very few of whom were sent overseas.

 

From writing that I did for my site:

 

 

 

I did some re-checking today and that appears to be valid.

 

Here are some pertinent quotes, from a variety of sources:

 

While units such as the Royal 22e Régiment, Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal, the Régiment de la Chaudière and the Régiment de Maisonneuve all had outstanding records during World War II, some feel that if they had been concentrated into the same brigade (as French-Canadians requested and as currently exists in the Canadian Armed Forces), it could have become a focus of pride for French-Canada, encouraging the war effort and political support in Quebec. These units were, however, distributed among the various English-speaking divisions of the Canadian Army overseas. Jack Granatstein in his book The Generals, points out that a shortage of French-speaking staff trained officers meant that any attempt to create an entire Francophone brigade would have likely ended in failure.

 

--

 

Actually only about 13,000 conscripts were sent overseas, and they went voluntarily. Most conscripts spent the war in Canada, as the government had promised they would. But they weren't alone. Only half of the Canadian Army made it overseas, and the majority of those who stayed home were volunteers. Similarly, two-thirds of the air force stayed in Canada also, though many were involved in the Commonweath air training plan. So while the Canadian army in Europe was in desperate straits for soldiers as the war drew to a close, it wasn't solely the fault of conscripts.

 

Also French Canada was not the only part of Canada to vote against conscription. It wasn't popular in Western Canada, and even Arthur Meighen, the pro-conscription former prime minister, was defeated in Toronto on the issue of conscription.

 

--

 

Many Canadians still did not support immediate conscription; there were a few riots in Montreal, although these were not on the same scale as the 1917 and 1918 riots. Even in Toronto, a strongly pro-conscription region, Conservative Arthur Meighen was defeated in a by-election after promising to help introduce conscription.

 

--

 

Few conscripts saw combat in Europe: only 2463 men reached units on the front lines. Out of these, 79 lost their lives. Politically, this was a successful gamble for King, as he avoided a drawn-out political crisis and remained in power until his retirement in 1948.

 

The NRMA men who refused to "go Active" were derisively called "Zombies" both in Canada and overseas; Farley Mowat recalls in his volumes of war memoirs savagely disliking those who wore the uniform but refused to make the same sacrifices he and his brothers-in-arms were called on to make in Italy and North-West Europe.

 

The only thing I could think of is maybe it meant MINDLESS. I wish my Dad was still alive because I think he would argue with you to what a Zombie is/was. I cant say anything except what it meant to him. All I know is he grew up during the War and his favorite Uncle had died 3 Days after the Normandy landings. Yes your right about the Quebec Units were mostly English Quebecers including the VanDoos. ( Montreal was the second largest English speaking City in Canada at one time) With all Politics aside, can you Imagine that your in Battle with two languages going at one time. Pure KAOS. As it was, when my guys were attached to the Vandoos

( Combat Engineers Support the Infantry) I would go to Orders and the Major would speak both languages although I was the only English person there. There was one time that a Major gave his orders in French only, dismissed everyone then gave me his Orders in English. That particular Operation me and my Section were screwed up so his task Bombed. He left half of the crucial timings and tasks out.

[holdfast]

The only thing I could think of is maybe it meant MINDLESS. I wish my Dad was still alive because I think he would argue with you to what a Zombie is/was. I cant say anything except what it meant to him. All I know is he grew up during the War and his favorite Uncle had died 3 Days after the Normandy landings. Yes your right about the Quebec Units were mostly English Quebecers including the VanDoos. ( Montreal was the second largest English speaking City in Canada at one time) With all Politics aside, can you Imagine that your in Battle with two languages going at one time. Pure KAOS. As it was, when my guys were attached to the Vandoos

( Combat Engineers Support the Infantry) I would go to Orders and the Major would speak both languages although I was the only English person there. There was one time that a Major gave his orders in French only, dismissed everyone then gave me his Orders in English. That particular Operation me and my Section were screwed up so his task Bombed. He left half of the crucial timings and tasks out.

 

 

Thanks for setting me up straight on a Zombie. Found this and very interesting read of my former home province

 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_conscription...d_War_2_and_why

 

http://wwii.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=575...ght=hong%20kong

 

http://warwriting.blogspot.com/2005/08/zombies.html

[holdfast]

Guys, please don't get political and get this thread locked.

 

This is posted for your information only.

 

It is a site I developed over several years when I was teaching, and used in class for reference...

 

http://www.personainternet.com/hjtoby/

 

Joko or anybody.

 

To get my Warrants I had to go on a Course called a Senior Leadership Course in St Jean Quebec.. Before going we had to complete a home study Package Facilitated from the College. It was History, Wrting skills and General Knowledge rolled into one. Anyways we had to write a paper with quotes and references and the theme was.

 

How did the Canadian Military change or influence Canadian Society? The examples they gave us was. 1). Women in the Military. 2). The United Nations 3). The French or Quebec. We had to have 3 examples.

 

I chose my own and wanted it to work, so I chose winning our Independence from Britain to become a Nation. I decided 3 different Wars. The first two were easy for me. So I took the Boar War as one. World War two would be Vimy Ridge. But the Third I spent almost a week just to figure it out and I had to dig deep and I found one which was a Battle in World War Two.

 

My question is. What would be your Example. And if you used an example from World War Two, What would it be.

 

I'm not being a smart arse just wondering for those interested an nothing to do, what would you pick if there was one.

Edited June 18, 2009 by holdfast

[Jonny]

I see this as involving three variables:

 

• Establishing independence
  
• Winning recognition from other nations
  
• Self-realization
  

 

All three are quite complex and involve not only battles but also diplomacy.

 

As far as battles are concerned and as far as WWI is concerned, the one that seems to be the most significant is Vimy Ridge, where the Canadians gained a significant victory that the other allies could not achieve.

 

In WWII it's hard to choose between D-Day (where the Canadian Army assaulted its own sector and the Canadians were the only ones to achieve the first-day objectives) and the Battle of the Scheldt Estuary/Liberation of Holland (where Canada gained the undying gratitude of the Dutch people).

 

We will always be overhsadowed by the Big Players, except in our own perception and sometimes not even in that. That's why it's important for at least our youth to understand (and be proud of) Canada's role in the Wars.

[JohnF]

We will always be overhsadowed by the Big Players, except in our own perception and sometimes not even in that. That's why it's important for at least our youth to understand (and be proud of) Canada's role in the Wars.

 

Sometimes ya just gotta toot yer own horn, even if it goes against yer nature. We're too damned polite and self-effacing as a nation.

 

JF

[bigugli]

I would have picked Battle of the Atlantic. By war's end in 1945, Canada had the 4th largest navy in the world, and the only navy that was 90% H.O. volunteers. The only navy that specifically specialized in A.S warfare. The RCN also developed a personality and reputation totally distinct from the old "Wooden Wall" of the Royal Navy.

[holdfast]

I see this as involving three variables:

 

• Establishing independence
  
• Winning recognition from other nations
  
• Self-realization
  

 

All three are quite complex and involve not only battles but also diplomacy.

 

As far as battles are concerned and as far as WWI is concerned, the one that seems to be the most significant is Vimy Ridge, where the Canadians gained a significant victory that the other allies could not achieve.

 

In WWII it's hard to choose between D-Day (where the Canadian Army assaulted its own sector and the Canadians were the only ones to achieve the first-day objectives) and the Battle of the Scheldt Estuary/Liberation of Holland (where Canada gained the undying gratitude of the Dutch people).

 

We will always be overhsadowed by the Big Players, except in our own perception and sometimes not even in that. That's why it's important for at least our youth to understand (and be proud of) Canada's role in the Wars.

My three picks are examples of your 3 variables. Here are the reasons for my picks.

 

1) Boer War-The Boer War was a first in many ways for Canada. It was the first time we sent troops abroad. It was the first time French and English Canada fought over sending troops overseas.

http://www.lermuseum.org/ler/mh/boerwar/index.html

 

2) Vimy Ridge because-Ever since confederation in 1867, Canada was still fighting wars as part of the British Army; this was the first time Canada fought its own battle as its own independent and organized unit. This proved to the world that Canada could function on its own, on a global scale, without aid from Britain.

 

The most important proof of this is how the triumph at Vimy earned Canada a separate signature from Britain on the Versailles Peace Treaty. This meant that the world truly did recognize and respect the fact that Canada was its own independent country.

http://www.socyberty.com/History/Vimy-Ridge.464881

 

3) The battle of the Scheldt Estuary. this I really had to dig deep and as I read the more interesting and Historic this Battle truly was. Lieutenant-General Guy Simonds Commanded the largest Canadian led campaign to this day. It was the first time and the last time that a Canadian had a British Division under his Command. He also had a Polish Division also under his command. Under Canadian Command an entire European Country (Netherlands was Liberated) Also Canada reached the German Border first and were halted by Allied Command.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm...erlands/scheldt

Edited June 19, 2009 by holdfast