NF: Health Care in the US

[scuro]

There is no perfect health care system and one won't be invented unless a government has unlimited money to finance it. Our system is inefficent and may require a fair degree of sophistication on the part of the user to get the service they need when they need it. Even if you know "your way around the block" delays do occur. For those thinking the US system is the way to go, it has significant faults also. It is by far the most expensive system in the world. Studies have shown that in the "people service industry" private is more expensive then public care and is less efficent. Remarkably the death rate is higher in US hospitals. There is no way to get around the significant profits private health care companies need to survive. Regardless, the US will soon be forced to change it's system in a major way due to ever balloning costs and more importantly deficits that will bankrupt the country unless changes are made.

 

For those US citizens with cake or a good insurance plan, it serves them well. On the other end of the scale the pitfalls of a system run for profit is that profit can be the only concern of the companies that provide them. On the far end of scale, Canadian paitent's needs can be ignored to the point where harm is done. In the US, paitents can be treated inhumanely to the point where harm is done. The difference is that in Canada we have a right to proper health care. Once again the two systems show our differences. The US is about the individual and individual rights. Canada is more protective of all in society. Perhaps because the cold winters made us huddle together in the past.

Edited June 24, 2008 by scuro

[Canuck2fan]

There is no way to get around the significant profits private health care companies need to survive. Regardless, the US will soon be forced to change it's system in a major way due to ever balloning costs and more importantly deficits that will bankrupt the country unless changes are made.

 

Here is an interesting read about U.S. for profit HMO's vs non profit HMO's and who gets the better care. It is about eight years old so things might have changed but I couldn't find another study comparing the two systems.

 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...754C0A96F958260

[oncogene]

Oncogene

...For everyone else, it's the luck of the draw. Please consider the situation outside of the GTA.

 

I AM outside of GTA, just to get it straight

[oncogene]

Eastern Ontario is hardly a remote area. Just no votes here.

 

Perhaps "remote" area isn't the right word. But less populated areas.

If we move to less populated areas, it's quite reasonable to expect there will be less doctors, hospitals, equipments available and we may get a higher chance of delays in treatments. If it's urgent, travel out to GTA or whatever bigger city/metro to see another docs. I don't think this is a problem due to the differences of Canaidan vs US healthcare system. I'm sure it'll be the same in US if u live in a small city/town with small population.... it's just that US has alot more population and has alot more bigger cities/metro than Canada.

 

 

Oh also, not only I'm away of GTA.... but I'm piss poor I have no income (doing grad school), in debt, and still borrowing/living on OSAP (government student loan, for those who dont' know). Would I be able to get a treatment if I were in US? Maybe I still could, maybe not, I duno.... but I would think it's definitely not exactly worry-free (in terms of bills) as it is here.

 

Not trying to knock the other US ppl posted here... but seems they are pretty well-off ppl... one beings physician himself... or the other one having his own business, taking a week long fly-in trip couple thousands miles away. As I already said, i think we all know the US system works well for the rich, it's what happens to the poor and less fortunate that's worth looking at.

 

 

 

This brings to a perhaps bigger problem tho... not having enough doctors. No matter how good the healthcare system is, it's not going to help without doctors. Or I should say not enough AVAILABLE doctors. The NUMBER of doctors (at least in ontario?) is kinda stabilized or maybe even increasing.... but the actual available doctors are getting less. And one huge reason... not to sound sexist or anything.... is becoz the proportion of females doctors is increasing. There was report (probably doesn't need a report to see, it's quite common sense really) showing females doctors tend to work less hours/day, less days/week, take more days off, then even more days(months) off for maternity leaves, and then on top, females docs tends to have shorter careers or may downright quit after having their children/families.

Just the last 4 months, becoz of the problems of my back & other thing, I've gone thru 3 docs, 2 physio, MRI.... every single one of those are females. And i'm not just talking about the doctors, but all the physiotherapies, nurses, technicians, radiologist, receptions, etc, etc are all females. It's like you walk into a clinic and the whole male race is extincted in there Nothing against female docs, they're probably more careful than an average male doc ... but it does potentially worsen the problem with doc availability.

Edited June 24, 2008 by oncogene

[Billy Bob]

I've been self employed since 1976 and purchased health insurance for my family. In July 1999 I turned 65 and went on medicare. I pay nothing for part A, but I pay for medicare part B, a supplemental plan and a drug plan. I'm also still paying 2.9% of my earned income into medicare as a payroll tax. I've never considered myself to be entitled to receive free medical coverage. If I did, where should the free stuff stop? Should I also receive free government housing, a free automobile, free food and free fishing tackle? If I did I'd be hard pressed to have self respect and incentive to fare for myself.

 

I see both health care plans (US & CAN) have there pluses and minuses but TennGuy think about this for one minute. You feel the US government shouldn't be liable to take care of your basic needs but if fact the US government already does. It supplies the US population with police protection, fire protection, schooling, hospitals, military, and many other numerous agencies to protect the welfare of it's people. Why not health care ? ? ?

 

And JohnnyBass, are you serious about your post that our best doctors come from Canada and it's our worse doctors that just graduated from med school. How do your doctors become doctors. Don't they also graduate from medical schools ? ? ? The reason doctors head south from the frozen north is because Canada doesn't compensate them more. I never hear of any of our doctors heading north unless it was to fish. As a matter of fact I have never heard of any US doctor leaving for another country because he thought health care was better elsewhere and wanted to be part of it

 

Just as we hear horror stories about the Canadian health care system, you hear horror stories about ours. I don't believe either are true. I have never seen or hear anyone here denied health care.

 

BTW since I pay high Canadian taxes when I am fishing Ontario (best fishing in the world) shouldn't I be entitled to FREE health care. After all your government discontinued the GST tax rebate last April

[TennesseeGuy]

Part of the population makes it with only a birth mother. Others need multiple mothers, especially the Government Mother. Sometimes a glass of warm milk helps. 98.6 F. is the optimum temperature.

 

Oncogene, you could find free medical coverage in the U.S. military. I'd recommend you for a spot because you're young, bright and I like you. The G.I. bill would probably be available to you so you could complete your education. You'd be a better student after serving. It worked for me and lots of others.

[Guest Johnny Bass]

And JohnnyBass, are you serious about your post that our best doctors come from Canada and it's our worse doctors that just graduated from med school. How do your doctors become doctors. Don't they also graduate from medical schools ? ? ? The reason doctors head south from the frozen north is because Canada doesn't compensate them more. I never hear of any of our doctors heading north unless it was to fish. As a matter of fact I have never heard of any US doctor leaving for another country because he thought health care was better elsewhere and wanted to be part of it

 

Just as we hear horror stories about the Canadian health care system, you hear horror stories about ours. I don't believe either are true. I have never seen or hear anyone here denied health care.

 

BTW since I pay high Canadian taxes when I am fishing Ontario (best fishing in the world) shouldn't I be entitled to FREE health care. After all your government discontinued the GST tax rebate last April

 

If you read the post again, you will see that I did not say all the best doctors come from Canada. But some of the best doctors come from Canada and it does not reflect on the health care system. Its about greed and profit. Why would an American doctor move to Canada when they are making a mint over charging people in the USA?

 

Actually they are true. And Ohio even verified it. Never heard or seen anyone denied health care?I guess you don't read the news much in your country. There was a big thing about a Hospital that was dropping off patients that didn't have coverage in the middle of the streets in LA. I can Google it if you like. May be isolated to L.A but you cant say it doesn't happen.

 

Probably due to the fact that its very populated and there are a lot of poor people seeking medical attention.....Hope its not a growing trend, as medic care costs go through the roof and the deficit continues to climb to unstable heights.

 

I don't think so. Your not a Canadian citizen. What do you expect with a couple of thousand dollars in taxes that you drop a year?

[scuro]

Part of the population makes it with only a birth mother. Others need multiple mothers, especially the Government Mother. Sometimes a glass of warm milk helps. 98.6 F. is the optimum temperature.

 

Oncogene, you could find free medical coverage in the U.S. military. I'd recommend you for a spot because you're young, bright and I like you. The G.I. bill would probably be available to you so you could complete your education. You'd be a better student after serving. It worked for me and lots of others.

 

Some people act like boobs. I wonder if they produce milk?

 

Back to the topic at hand.

Hospital dumping -> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/17/...079_page2.shtml

Edited June 25, 2008 by scuro

[Chris]

Rick

If some areas can do what they do well, and each area gets the same per capita funding, everyone should be able to do the same.

 

That's the problem Rick, different areas DO NOT receive the same funding per capita. Not to be argumentative, but in one of my posts (maybe it was on the other thread) I pointed out that in eastern Ontario we pay on average almost 50% higher property taxes per capita than those in the GTA and our schools for example receive less funding per capita. I am not sure about exact hospital funding but when Dalton announced the new funding for Ontario hospitals, Toronto received far, far more per capita than in eastern Ontario, Ottawa included. If we are "less-populated" as someone mentioned, then maybe we should be paying 50% less taxes than those in the GTA. We'll never see it....as I said it's all about votes. If voters in the GTA are pleased with healthcare funding and lower property taxes then things will never get better elsewhere.

 

Scuro

The US is about the individual and individual rights. Canada is more protective of all in society

 

Yep....except that some are more protected than others....right Scuro. I'm 45 mins from the nations capital and have a hospital 10 mins away in Winchester. Unfortunately wait times in eastern Ontario have increased since Dalton McGuilty pried another $600/year from us with his bogus health tax (which was suppoesed to decrease wait times). Only in the GTA have they decreased. Argue all you want....fact is the money goes where the votes are. Geez even when I was in the muskie club the OV chapter always use to complain that MNR dollars always went to GTA and none out here. Ottawa has a history of receiving a disproportionate amount of funding compared to Toronto. Until the people who are fortunate enough to live where the money is spent can see past their cozy lives in the center of the universe (GTA) nothing will change elsewhere. Canadians like to boast about how they are a "just" and equal society. What a crock....when it comes right down to it, people in Canada vote for what's good for themselves, NOT what's good for the country as a whole. And that screws some Canadians out of their fair share. For example see below:

 

Oncogene

If it's urgent, travel out to GTA or whatever bigger city/metro to see another docs.

Yeah that's right....travel to where the money is spent if you're not happy where you are......like I'm gonna drive 4.5 hrs to GTA in an emergency. Geez that's half the wait time right there.

 

Rick

I am from Niagara..not much votes here either.

 

Not much votes???? I drove from TO to Niagara once....it was like I never left the city. Google Nagara and then google eastern Ontario to see how ridiculous that statement is.

 

Scuro

Our system is inefficent and may require a fair degree of sophistication on the part of the user to get the service they need when they need it.

 

Golly gee.....I nevr thinked abowt that. Mebbe if sumday r skools in eastern ontario git ekwal funding we could be smart enuf to git r helthkare like u guys from the city.

Edited June 25, 2008 by ChrisS

[Guest Johnny Bass]

Part of the population makes it with only a birth mother. Others need multiple mothers, especially the Government Mother. Sometimes a glass of warm milk helps. 98.6 F. is the optimum temperature.

 

Oncogene, you could find free medical coverage in the U.S. military. I'd recommend you for a spot because you're young, bright and I like you. The G.I. bill would probably be available to you so you could complete your education. You'd be a better student after serving. It worked for me and lots of others.

 

You're young, bright and I like you? So come join their over extended military that is short on recruits, that has free coverage, that is until you are sent to war and come back a basket case..... Do you know how many vets are left homeless?

 

I think Oncogene is young and bright and smart enough not to get into a corporate type military that starts wars for corporate profit.

[scuro]

ChrisS,

 

I'm not arguing that our system doesn't have problems. It does. The point I am making is that no health system in the world is perfect and other systems, like the US system also has significant problems.

 

Some point to the US and the excellent service that some people get there. I don't disagree. Probably a majority of the US has excellent health care but what about the minority? Which system is better?...it's debatable and people have made excellent points on this thread.

 

A point I want to make is that the US system will have to change dramatically in the near future and our system won't. We are running budget surpluses and can afford to pay more the further we go into the future. In the US they have lived like there is no tomorrow. There will have to be drastic cuts to entitlement programs like we had to do in the 90's to eliminate our deficits. There system will be much worse in 5 to 10 years and I wouldn't be surprised to see unemployed Dr.'s heading north.

 

If you don't believe me, may be you want to listen to David Walker the chief financial officer of the US. Taken from a 60 minute interview.

What would happen in 2040 if nothing changes?

"If nothing changes, the federal government's not gonna be able to do much more than pay interest on the mounting debt and some entitlement benefits. It won't have money left for anything else – national defense, homeland security, education, you name it. You could eliminate all waste and fraud and the entire Pentagon budget and the long-range financial problem still wouldn't go away, in what's shaping up as an actuarial nightmare. Part of the problem is that there won't be enough wage earners to support the benefits of the baby boomers. But the real problem is health care costs"...we have, "15 to $20 trillion under-funding. We're not being realistic. We can't afford the promises we've already made, much less to be able, piling on top of 'em. The federal government increased existing Medicare obligations nearly 40 percent over the next 75 years. We’d have to have eight trillion dollars today, invested in treasury rates, to deliver on that promise.

 

Asked how much we actually have saved up for these projected future costs, David Walker states, "Zip."

 

So where's that money going to come from? "Well it's gonna come from additional taxes, or it's gonna come from restructuring these promises, or it's gonna come from cutting other spending".

 

He does believe the current health care system is way too expensive, and overrated. "On cost we're number one in the world. We spend 50 percent more of our economy on health care than any nation on earth. We have the largest uninsured population of any major industrialized nation. We have above average infant mortality, below average life expectancy, and much higher than average medical error rates for an industrialized nation".

Edited June 25, 2008 by scuro

[TennesseeGuy]

Next month my wife and I will spend a couple of weeks in NW Ontario. We'll have excellent medical care available to us in both the U.S. and in Canada. We each have a $500 deductible for medical services in Canada. Being in the bush has it's drawbacks for receiving quick medical attention, but we have the same thing in some of our remote areas of Tennessee.

 

I'm okay with health care systems in both countries and wish others felt the same way.

 

Oncogene, I hope you consider changing your handle on the board. It doesn't fit you. Come fishing with me, but only after your degree work is completed so you can pay your own way. Best to you. You're into some pretty important stuff. If I'm guessing correctly you might come up with a break through that could add years to lives of men.

[oncogene]

That's the problem Rick, different areas DO NOT receive the same funding per capita. Not to be argumentative, but in one of my posts (maybe it was on the other thread) I pointed out that in eastern Ontario we pay on average almost 50% higher property taxes per capita than those in the GTA .....

.........

.........

 

I'm sure votes & less than perfect decisions from government play some role in funding.... but....

you only look at funding per capita..... have you consider expense per capita? You say eastern ontario pay 50% higher property tax, maybe, just maybe, that has something to do with ppl in eastern ontario are more spread-out (less densely populated) living in bigger lots & bigger houses, while you go to toronto there'r apt/condo buildings with tiny units cramped with ppl popping up everywhere? It cost more for roads, lights, all those infra-structures, public services PER capita to be maintained in less populated area. Not to mention, the further away from big city/metro, the cost of everything also go up coz things take longer to get there, cost more fuel/time to be shipped, etc.

 

 

 

What's the population in Winchester/Chesterville? I duno but maybe 15,000? GTA has 6,000,000? So you said there's a hospital in Winchester? So based on per capita, there should be like 400 hospitals in GTA. I don't live in GTA but i'm preeeeeetty sure GTA doens't have 400 hospitals.... maybe we should put more fundings in GTA for more hospital then?

 

We can't always just look at funding per capita... have you consider, say, how useful the total sum of funding in each area if the population is small? Say, building/maintaining a hospital... even if there's equal funding per capital, for a small area, that total sum of funding for that particular area may only get you a half-assed under-equipped hospital running short of medical staffs (long wait time huh). Pool the funding and get a more well-equipped properly-staffed hospital in the bigger area may just be much more useful for everyone.

 

And don't forget, when it comes to funding to hospitals, it's not just about the population we have now... it's also about how much population there WILL BE in the future. I'm gona guess GTA has and will continue to have faster economy & population growth than eastern ontario, or pretty much any other part of Ontario, no?

 

 

And as I said, this is not something unique for Canada. I'm sure in US, or pretty much anywhere in the world, if you choose to live further away from where the money is (big cities, rich economy), you'll have the same problems. It's a tradeoff, you can't have everything.

 

 

PS.... Funny as if I'm here defending GTA and then Canada..... yet I dont' even live in GTA, and I'm not even born nor raised in Canada