Dutch01

The problem re: Syria, as I see it, is that there is no 'better' side in that equation. On one side are ISIL, we're all in agreement about them. On the other side is Syria, who crush opposition to Assed, they gas their own people etc.. Do we really have to choose between the lesser of two evils ?

 

There is no easy answer to this but we can't sit back and let others get dirty in the trenches. If we stay home while everyone else takes the fight to them, then chances are, they'll be not so inclined to help us when the time comes. This is not Iraq 2003 where we were right not to take part, but blowback from that invasion.

I'm curious why you think it has to be us in the trenches? Why not Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Egypt, etc. These countries have 4.5M troops in theatre already. It's their backyard, why not them? are you so eager to see Canadians in harm's way? edited because that comment was uncalled for.

 

And spare me that baloney about they won't help us later. If anyone ever invades Canada, the U.S. isn't going to say "hey Canada, remember that time you guys wouldn't come to Syria?". That's just a fantasy.

But they have already done it here, one life or more than one is one to many

 

We have not brought it on. some corrupt seeds have

Our bombs have killed more innocents than all the terrorist attacks combined, probably by a factor of thousands. We've been bombing for years now. If bombing works, how did Paris happen?

 

If one dead Canadian is one too many, how do you think they feel in Syria, having lost over 210,000 lives since the conflict began? How can a person lack empathy to the point of saying 210,000 isn't enough, let's kill them all? It's horrific and inhuman.

 

If we don't learn to accept our own complicity in the problem, how can we ever begin to address it?

 

 

PS mr blizzard, didn't mean to imply you personally were advocating "kill em all", I have heard it said too many times over the last few days.....

I respect all comments from everyone, that what this board is all about, but we have had many decades of relatively peace free living, times are changing and again we have been able to be arm chair quarter backs in regards to solving other peoples problems in other countries but I totally feel some people may be nervous or in denial that it could happen here, have we not already lost 2 soldiers on our turf. All the talk in the world will not stop them from ramping up activities in the USA and Canada.

 

The point is what are we going to continue to due to protect Canada and the USA when s..t hits the fan here

I don't necessarily have all the answers, but I do know that if we keep bombing them from afar, they'll make sure they bring it here to us.

 

When I look at that video of Syria, I am appalled at what we have wrought.

With the unrest unchecked it will spread. The idea of ignoring or hoping peace will overcome evil is not a realistic expectation from a rotted seed. The soldiers of the world who live and die for your peace paid with their time in the forces and some with their lives. We all need to respect their sacrifice and to not let their deaths be in vain just because we don't feel the evil will reach our personal lives. You have as much chance of levitating a glass of water as wishing Isil will become peaceful. I will stop here with the hope that we appreciate our people in the military and support them in their mission that gives you the safety and the ability to stay at home and wish for peace.

 

Disheartened by the lack of support of our military

 

 

Art

Art,

 

I absolutely support our soldiers 100%, and I am very much aware that my freedom came at their sacrifice.

 

I also have been clear about the role I believe they should play, which is not "hoping peace will overcome".

 

Finally I believe when I say "Hey, wait a minute... Why do Canadian men and women have to be the ones to die when there are 4.5M troops already over there and doing nothing" I AM supporting our troops. Our men and women are not supposed to waste their lives so defense contractors can sell more munitions.

 

Before the tin foil hat accusations come out, the President of the United States himself warned the American public in a State of the Union address that this would happen. That the Office of the President itself would become beholden to the military industrial complex. I am not making this up.

 

How quickly we forget.

 

PS: Art, my abrupt tone is not directed at you, it's time to "punch out" and go home so I'm trying to type quick!

 

 

I am not one for imposing violence, but the point is that if everyone takes the side that we can allow a place like syria (in the exact same way that afghanistan was) become a terrorist state, you leave a massive deal of political unrest in a region.

 

You dont have to like everything that our allies do, i.e. isreal, the USA, england and even France, but at the end of the day they are our allies, and as such we have a duty to fight along side them when the cause is just.

 

Some of us here obviously believe that the situation in Syria will never escalate further than the tribal skirmishes that have dominated the middle east for thousands of years, however others of us see the idea of a terrorist state as a real threat...please let us not forget the methods used by the natzi's in ww2. No one thought they were a threat until it was far too late.

 

I think in a lot of ways we need to step back and think, what if this happened in downtown Toronto, would we be singing the same tune? Everyone is entitled to their opinion absolutely, but I dont think the debate here is whether or not military action works in neutrilizing threats...the real debate is how real and big that threat is...

 

some here clearly feel that if we leave syria and the middle east alone, those problems will remain there and peace will prevail in our own country, others here clearly feel that the total unrest in war in those countries can very easily spill over to ours.

 

Personally I am not sure what sparked off a bunch of saudis and UAE's and egyptions to go knock down the twin towers on 911, as far as i was aware the United states and nato in general were not conducting any major operations aside from in Iraq at that time...but it happened, with a bunch of people that were trained in afghanistan....get my point? anyways im ranting

 

I love the idea of peace, but i think last friday showed us that these guys are for real and a real threat...its time to act along side our allies, because they hopefully will be there for us when crap inevitably hits the fan here in the next 1000 years. Telling someone else to deal with it and bailing out on your friends typically makes it tough to ask for help when the scenario is reversed.

I have been pretty clear about the type of support I think we should offer our allies and I don't think it qualifies as putting my head in the sand.

 

If you lived in Syria right now, and all "the West" was offering is more bombs, and IS offers you food for your kids, what would you choose?

 

Even those that flee, and are lucky enough to 1) not get caught/killed by IS and 2) not drown trying to get to Europe will end up in a place were everyone looks at them sideways, and they'll never feel welcome.

 

Look at the jerks who attacked a woman wearing a hijab in the TTC today. I guarantee you they repeat the line about how "Muslims treat their women like crap" to their racist friends. Yet somehow they cannot detect their own hypocrisy in that they just attacked a woman themselves.

Again well brought up points but just a simple question

 

God forbid but what if what just happened in Paris happened in our country,,,you just could not talk about it at Tims, obviously some sort of action would have to be taken, and what sort of action would be appropriate,,please understand am just regarding how we would deal with this type of situation

I posted above about how a man who lost his wife in the attacks in Paris has responded. I don't know that I would be able to have his strength and courage but I hope so, because he's right. Islamic State's goal is to increase hatred and violence. They want more Islamaphobia because they will believe it will drive moderates to their cause. We are taking the bait.

 

Watch the Syrian flyover video I posted if you haven't already. In 2009 there were 1.7M people living in that city. Look at it now. How popular do you think we are with those that remain alive? If doing that to them was a solution, then Paris would not have occurred (we've been bombing them for years and they still pulled off Paris).

You guys are gonna make a dude blush!

 

Like this?

116 ISIS oil tanker trucks blown to bits yesterday or the day before by US A-10's and AC-130's.

 

https://www.funker530.com/a-10-warthogs-and-ac-130-kill-frenzy-116-isis-trucks-destroyed/

It's better than this:

 

http://youtu.be/M0ELAa02TUY

 

Sorry, I'm on mobile, don't know how to embed it.

This takes a huge heart, I'm not sure I could be as big a man as he were I in his shoes. I'm also very much an atheist, but I respect this man for walking the walk. His God would be proud of him.

 

Anton Leiris's wife was killed at the Bataclan on Friday. He posted a letter to the terrorists online:

 

"Friday night, you took an exceptional life - the love of my life, the mother of my son - but you will not have my hatred. I don't know who you are and I don't want to know, you are dead souls. If this God, for whom you kill blindly, made us in his image, every bullet in the body of my wife would have been one more wound in his heart.

 

So, no, I will not grant you the gift of my hatred. You're asking for it, but responding to hatred with anger is falling victim to the same ignorance that has made you what you are. You want me to be scared, to view my countrymen with mistrust, to sacrifice my liberty for my security. You lost.

 

I saw her this morning. Finally, after nights and days of waiting. She was just as beautiful as when she left on Friday night, just as beautiful as when I fell hopelessly in love over 12 years ago. Of course I am devastated by this pain, I give you this little victory, but the pain will be short-lived. I know that she will be with us every day and that we will find ourselves again in this paradise of free love to which you have no access.

 

We are just two, my son and me, but we are stronger than all the armies in the world. I don't have any more time to devote to you, I have to join Melvil who is waking up from his nap. He is barely 17-months-old. He will eat his meals as usual, and then we are going to play as usual, and for his whole life this little boy will threaten you by being happy and free. Because no, you will not have his hatred either."

 

I was very moved by this and thought I would share it with you all.

Dutch01 your insight from a different point of view is always a good view so please keep posting. I thank you for those that don't. You open eyes (mine) on a few different topics as of late and I appreciate it. "stay classy" lol

Thanks dude. I expected a bit of a hard time on this one (which may still be on it's way!). I get very passionate about this subject because I worry about the world my Son will inherit. Luckily he has a great and very multicultural group of friends and is colorblind as a result.

 

As a result of said passion, I sometimes stray close to the line of being rude, which is not my intention and which I find repugnant. I have to dial it back and remind myself you guys are my friends and countrymen, and I can't change minds that I have already alienated.

Well writen as are most of your posts, I might not always agree with you but I always appreciate the time and thought you put into explaning your point of view.

 

In this case however I do agree totally with you that bombs are not the answer! I just heard on the news that the French bombing runs have killed 38 ISIS members so far. I would love to know what it costs to drop just one of those bombs! I am thinking that the cost/ is going to be extradonary.

 

I don't like the idea of our soldiers going into combat over there, I think that once again we are getting dragged into a war that we didn't start and isn't ours to fight but we do tend to stand by our friends even if they aren't always right, it's the Canadian way.

Thanks Cliff. Your middle paragraph is on point. Who gets the money when those bombs are bought? The American military industrial complex. The same guys that are quietly lobbying Congress for more bombing.

 

People are emotional, myself included, but we have to stop with the knee jerk responses that we are being led into, and really look at who wants this war the most.

 

I despise everything IS represents, but we have to be smart enough to look past the obvious and find a lasting solution to the problem. I submit that as long as bombs rain on people they will never accept peace. They may not accept peace either way, but we can't occupy the moral high ground when our body count of innocents is much higher than 129.

 

As to your last point, I always stand by a friend. But when a friend is being an idiot, I don't stand by him by being one too. I tell him to smarten up (or sober up) and I make sure he gets home in one piece.

The "allies" need to figure a way to stop ISIL's funding. Estimated income from oil is 2 Billion a year. If they can't buy arms or pay their fighters, they lose their credibility and their support.

Bombs don't stop fanatics. Just like anything else, follow the money and you find your answers.

HH

Our ally "Turkey" is buying their oil, and is bombing the guys fighting IS (the Kurds). That ought to tell you something right there....

 

has everyone forgot that Nathan Cirillo was killed by an islamic extremist right here in Ottawa, and that extremist attempted to enter parliament and open fire. In our luck the idiot was shot before he could kill anyone else?

 

If you think canada is immune to this kinda garbage and the solution is to hide under a rock until it goes away you are an idiot.

If you think you can bomb an idea into submission, you can apply that pejorative to yourself as well.

 

You cannot defeat ISIS without boots on the ground and body bags coming home.

 

It should be regional armies' boots and bodies, not ours.

 

I'm fine with providing training and logistical support to those willing to take up the fight, but we shouldn't be doing the heavy lifting.

 

 

Also, the West are hypocrites. Boko Haram has a much, much higher body count than Islamic State, but those are brown bodies, not white ones, so no war on Boko Haram.

They kill people in France to feed there kids?

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you unable to grasp the concept of nuance?

 

Did you read the article I referred to or does it not fit your pre-established narrative?

 

How about an answer to my semi-rhetorical question about whether more bombs equal more peace?

 

In short, I'm trying to determine if you have more to offer to this discussion than pithy sarcasm.

As an aside, we often talk about how lucky we are to live in a country like Canada. Well, it truly is luck. Any one of us could have been born in Syria, and if so, we would have to ask ourselves (if we weren't already dead), what lengths will I go to to feed my children?

 

Look at your children when you go home tonight and think about that. Then think about what lengths these people will go to if you bomb their children.

Honest question

If the pm is willing to send more troops over for training why is he so insistent on pulling our fighter planes out of the picture when our counter parts need help

 

Will we never need their assistance

 

Does he think the I group will never bother Canada because we aren't combating them with air strikes just ground troops

Honest answer: you cannot win this war by bombs. Ever, period. First, the UN and Geneva convention would never allow carpet bombing civilians. Second, if we did that, we'd be worse terrorists than IS anyways. Does anyone think that if only the Palestinians had more bombs, peace would follow? How about the reverse - if Israel rains bombs in the Gaza Strip, do you think Hamas will throw up their hands and say "okay Israel, you win"? No chance.

 

Every time we drop a bomb we create more enemies. There was a link to a great article earlier in this thread about why people join IS. I'm guessing most won't read it. Most of these guys didn't like Saddam, but under him they had a way more prosperous and peaceful life than under "us". The average IS soldier is 27 years old, married with two kids, and while they are Muslim, they do not subscribe to the extreme idealism that IS leadership does. The fact is, a job fighting for IS is the only way they can feed their kids because the U.S. left their country in ruins. The U.S. created this situation in a mad rush to bomb someone (anyone). They had no plan for after the bombs fell, and are now reaping what they have sown.

 

In fact, the U.S. funded IS when they were under other names because they had a hard on for Assad. Assad is a bad guy, don't get me wrong, but the U.S. is still bumbling around making the middle East worse. Who do they think is going to fill the power vacuum if they topple Assad?

 

Reality check, there are approximately 30,000 IS troops. There are 1.5M regular and 3M reserve troops in the region (in the armies of "allies" such as Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc). None of them have fighting IS on their priority list. I think we should be asking our "allies" why that is, and tell them to clean up their own back yard. I do not believe our troops should be in a combat role there, but we can train and support those that will do the heavy lifting.

 

At any rate, I am pleased that we are no longer bombing because every orphan or widow we create ends up joining IS to fight the "terrorists" that destroyed their homes and killed their family.

 

I believe we have to dial back on our own hatred. If we decide that the answer to this problem is to "turn the Middle East into a sheet of glass", then we lose our humanity and become the monsters we claim to hate.

One day ice fishing me and my buddy are sitting about 10 feet apart. We had augered a bunch of holes around us so we didn't have to restart teh auger later. We started catching crappies and then all of a sudden a guy just sits down between the two of us and starts fishing in one of our holes!!!

Time to start up the gas auger and start drilling a new hole 3" from the one he's fishing!

Not a single F18 has been lost in the war against ISIS so far. Now Trudeau is going to pull our fighter jets out and send our ground troups in. ????????

He's sending in trainers because unless we teach people how to stand up for themselves, we will always have to stand up for them. Seems like common sense to me......

To whom are you referring to Dutch?Me?

No one in particular.... wait were you talking to me or the "other" Dutch??

 

I'm confused ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The 9.1L I recorded over 100km was mostly downhill (not a joke), at 90kp/h on cruise control, at 3am with no traffic all the way home from the lake. Not exactly real world conditions, but it is possible.

Spend $25.00 on a LeBaron membership and you get 10% off regular price. I got $175 off of my Terrova that way.

My best 100km in my 2015 Silverado (5.3 V8) was 9.1 l/100km. Lifetime average over 18,000 km's is 15.4....I'm kinda heavy on the throttle though. :\

I blame Justin. He's only been PM for a few days and then this? Highly suspicious!

Also for $25 you can get a LeBaron membership and save 10% for a year. I did this when I bought my Terrova and saved +/- $175 right off the top.

I just picked Daiwa Revros for $50 at Le Baron. It feels like a reel that cost twice as much. I haven't used my Abu's that DID cost twice as much since I got it. It's below your budget but worth a look.