JohnF

Beware the inebriated bear. JF

A couple of my friends have had it done. All had no bad after effects and were quite pleased with the results. JF

Oh, that's just great. Now all over Ontario yer gonna be hearing the painful sound of fishermen doing their best Bing Crosby for the fish. I can't even begin to imagine what our lakes are gonna sound like, and the fish may all just migrate to OHIO or something. Sheesh! JF

Somebody tell him he can't be talkin' about sacrificing virgins in front of his own very daughter. No wonder she calls him a goat. At least I assume she meant him when she said she'd bring the goat. JF

Sorry if I've disillusioned you but after you hit 60+ years it's hard not to be a tad jaundiced towards politicians. Collectively they've raised "public fornication" to an art form. JF

I agree that most (all?) politicians could care less what we think (until just before an election). As for reducing spending are you talking about politicians? If so, good one. I was ready for a laff tonight. The problem with losing transfer payment money is that it's a big part of what the budget was built on and if a chunk of money like that doesn't come down guess where it has to come from to make up the deficit? It's either by increasing other taxes (just what we need) or making the deficit even bigger (which we need even less). JF

I'll defer to your own experience. I'm just going on reports from other northern dwellers. 35 years ago in Stratford I just took in a hand drawn depiction of my pool installation and got the permit no problem. Today I would need a survey and a follow up inspection by the city guys. JF

Peanut butter for some paper adhesives like price tags? JF

Remember that our provincial govt signed a statement of intent or an agreement of some sort with the feds long ago which essentially said that if the province didn't proceed with this tax as agreed we will lose a lot of money in transfer payments as a penalty. I believe the penalty is something like 4.3 billion dollars. I'm not absolutely certain but it seems to me the cost of not doing it may be as painful as doing it. Here's a link to one of Ontario's papers with a story - http://www.emcstittsvillerichmond.ca/20100108/News/HST+becomes+law+in+Ontario+July+1,+2010 Perhaps someone else here has more details and time to explain it better. I have to work on my classwork again. Looks to me that we haven't a whole lotta choice. We've been painted into a corner without ever knowing we were even painting the floor. This may be a whole new low for elected officials, not only introducing painful legislation but engineering the blackmail to make it happen before it ever goes to the legislature. Sure is an interesting way of gathering voters for the next election. JF

I agree. Leads one to wonder if there was even a permit taken out. But I've heard that the northern municipalities are a little slacker than our southern planning depts. Hard to believe they're all under the control of the same Planning Act. JF

Something I guess I'll have to learn if they want me to teach courses up north. And that being siad mebbe I should drop some hints for an assignment up north (in the summer). JF

Thanks BB but the situation with the kids is not mine to control. I'm just trying to help out a little by getting them on the right track (cuz I know Cliff would do the same thing if he could). The real solution will probably be handled by a good lawyer. All I was doing with that example to you was putting on a little dog and pony show. Sometimes we gotta prove what we can do before folks start to trust us and that's not just about real estate trading. Just for fun here's another cheap parlour trick - one of us here has a property comprising about 17.58 acres that sits on a point on the north shore of a lake about 5 kms west (slightly south) of the nearest town. I could post how much was paid for it but it's kinda involved with two different parcels apparently purchased on the same day. The deed refers to a forfeiture of mining rights which I suspect is fairly common for the area. Guess who. Of course I won't say who it is even if you get it right. JF

My apologies to all of you, and particularly Cliff if I appear to be hijacking this thread. I'm actually also working to help Cliff out behind the scenes, at least to the extent I can. But what a thread like this does is allow me to help make a few consumers better informed on the real estate business, and for the cynics that's not to brainwash you into dealing only with Realtors but rather so you can make an informed decision on whether or not you should commit yourself to some aspect of a real estate deal without getting professional advice and/or assistance. Lots of folks are perfectly able to get through it without a Realtor's help but other times peculiar little twists and turns arise that may well come back and bite you in the ass down the road. Most of us in the business have enough loyal clientel that we aren't hurt by the occasional person taking a flyer and dealing privately. Or they get stung just enough that they tell all their friends that they'll never do it solo again. The toughest part for us is when we find ourselves listing the private sale property for the private buyer at a later date and have to explain to the buyer turned seller about the problems they inherited that could have been headed off by dealing with professionals from the outset. It's just like fixing your own car engine, or cutting out your own ingrown toenails, or putting your own roof on your house. Lots of folks can do it without hiring a pro but will the amateur work come back to bite them in the ass later? I could on and on (and seem to have) about this but I'll stop now because this is a fishing site not a real estate site. But one last thing BB. And this is a good example of how the average consumer is misinformed about real estate in our world. Read this site http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lcns/realestate/1736.htm and with the exception of what appears to be some kind of limited agency and sub-agency definitions in there it sounds to me that in NY the rules are essentially the same as here in Ontario. You have buyer agency, seller agency and dual agency with the same fiduciary dutires and exceptions to service in dual agency. We just have somewhat different names for it here. JF

That's exactly the way one of our town's better lawyers always explained things to his clients (while he was alive) when this kind of thing happened. "What did you think you were buying?" and I tend to agree. The problem though (and I don't have enuf details yet) may be that the property line on the other side may also not be where they thought it was and they end up effectively losing a lot of land here, not just a few feet of frontage. The other and perhaps more serious issue is over liability for injuries, damages etc that may occur at the neighbour's house but are technically happening on their property. Why should they be responsible for that? There's also now the issue of ever trying to sell the property. The situation needs to be resolved and perhaps (probably) the kids are entitled to some form of damages or restitution here. JF

I'm not familiar with the laws in every state but generally agency law comes down to a fairly standard code. The different states and provinces have imposed some twists and turns in it by way of their respective legislation pertaining to real estate trading. In Ontario we have both seller and buyer representation and either can pay for the Realtor's services. In most cases, however, the commission paid to the listing brokerage is split between the buyer and seller brokerages. In the case where a brokerage puts together a deal for their client on an unlisted property the buyer may pay the brokerage that provided the services. I believe that I've heard of some states that preclude one brokerage acting as agent for both the buyer and the seller so there are offices that specialize in buyer brokerage only. JF

I know that, Terry, but thanks. I'm just dickin' around. Sometimes it's just hard to resist. JF

I think I know more facts than you about this deal. You'll have to ask Big Cliff why they aren't starting an action against their agent but they have legitimate reasons that are really their business only. However, you are correct in general. Any time a consumer feels they have been mistreated by a RECO registrant they have the right to lodge a complaint. It will be investigated thoroughly and if the RECO people feel there's grounds to go further they will assign the case to a tribunal to have a discipline hearing. We are mandated by law to carry very good E&O as well as insurance to protect consumer deposits held in trust and even our own commissions when owed by other brokerages. The great E&O is a blessing and a curse. Even when we aren't absolutely responsible there's a tendency to try to drag us into the action because we have "deep pockets". There are a lot of consumers who refuse to accept their own responsibility or simple bad luck when a deal makes a left turn so they listen when their friends start screaming "SUE". For the most part their lawyers help them to see reason and that cuts off a lot of unfounded complaints from going further. Of those that make it to RECO there are quite a number that don't merit discipline and stop there. By a funny coincidence I'm one of the Ontario registrants currently appointed to the pool from which these panels are chosen. I didn't bother mentioning it before. I think there are about 90 of us across the province. And before you make some comment about how that should guarantee that no one ever gets punished check out the public list of registrants who have received penalties from our panels. Some of them are pretty significant. Look under the Complaints & Enforcement tab on the RECO site. More details here http://www.reco.on.ca/ Our industry really has little patience with our own members who don't follow the rules. It's a great system for the consumers' protection. If you really feel you've been abused criminally by a Realtor you may want to go direct to the courts for civil litigation or to get them punished for some kind of malfeasance (or whatever the legal word is). If you are having a legal problem with a real estate deal I would hope that your first thought is to get legal advice from a professional. Lawyers are well aware of the various means of recourse available to the consumer. If going to RECO is one of your options I would think your lawyer will point you that way. But in our defence we spend a lot of time in courses learning to do our work legally and ethically, perhaps as much as any kind of business in Ontario and more than most. Any questions Mr Scugog(Boy)? JF

You're right about the fences, but the more people there are who think the property line is in a particular place the better the chance that it's close. Even one in disagreement waves the red flag and suggests that further investigation is in order. And yes, it's surprising the neighbour got away with building so far off the mark assuming he got municipal permits etc. It raises a lot of questions about municipal inspections and construction without proper permits etc. The neighbour may well find himself with lots of problems if he didn't get municipal permission when he built. It's a crappy situation for the kids but from a purely professional perspective it's a pretty interesting case study. I really hope it works out well for the kids. I'm happy to help however I can. JF

I'll put on my teacher hat here because I have the weekend off and I'm relaxing with my second cup of coffee out of a mug instead of a cardboard container. You're right BB. The survey is often a key ingredient in rural properties. As always, hindsight is 20/20 and in this case would have headed off the problem, or at least informed the kids that the problem existed before they had the title conveyed. In most urban transactions the property lines are generally more obvious and these situations tend not to occur or at least not with problems of the same magnitude. A Realtor with access to MPAC/Teranet might have been able to help here by looking up the aerial photos of the property if they're even posted and comparing the building positions to the lot outline. The title search wouldn't likely show anything about this if neither owner knew about it. The reason I asked about Land Titles registration (which is coming to the southerly part of Ontario but was a more common thing in the north) is that properties registered under Land Titles are less susceptible to claims by adverse possession because of the way they are recorded, guaranteed and assured. That being said I'm afraid this may be one of the rare exceptions but it would take lawyers to sort that out. Finally the Title Insurance may or may not give some relief here. At first glance I'd say possibly not but it may come down more to what damage this does to the encroaching neighbour than to the kids. How's that for confusing. It may help to mitigate the problem or it may not. I don't know for sure. Once in a while I see a settlement by the insurer that confuses me. But that doesn't mean Title Insurance isn't a good thing. Besides boundary disputes it protects in other ways. Title fraud has become a big deal now with crooks and sometimes crooked lawyers in collusion to register fraudulent mortgages and titles. It's really hard to defend yourself against it so the insurance is a blessing if you are victimized. If I've explained anything incorrectly here I'd be happy to here from realtors or lawyers who can show me the error of my ways. I'm always willing to learn. One thing I suggest though is to be very careful in acting on gratuitous advice you receive here or on other similar forums when dealing with significant issues like money, health and property ownership. All the advice is well-intended, but frankly some of it is incorrect or at best only partially correct or even applicable. I get a kick out of watching all the "AHA moments" as my real estate licence students figure something out in class or recognize a situation they've encountered as I tell my real life stories to them. "Is that how that happened?" is a common response to my explanations as we work through the material. It's obvious that they often didn't understand what they thought they understood as it was happening. There's a lot of work and due diligence done behind the scenes by lawyers & Realtors that the buyers and sellers in the transaction simply aren't aware of and probably wouldn't understand even if it was explained to them. Lawyers spend a long time in school learning some pretty arcane and convoluted stuff that you and I can only wish we actually understood. To a lesser extent we Realtors also spend time learning how to navigate the pitfalls inherent in real property trading. I even have a short course for my own salespeople called "Red Flags". It's all about anticipating where the problems are likely to arise for the consumer and how we can head the problems off before our clients get hurt by them. I'll give you an example that will sound a little obscure but Fish_F should relate after all his studying. Depending on how old the properties involved are the title may include an old metes & bounds description of the property. I just finished teaching my students how to read a M&B description and the prospect of having to know this stuff worries them but they soldier on. It's confusing to say the least because south becomes north etc etc. But if a Realtor knows how he/she can actually pace off the property boundaries from the description and get at least a rough idea of just where the property boundaries are located. I'm kinda anal about this stuff so if I was dealing with a buyer interested in a property that the sellers claimed didn't have a survey or any clear and mutually acknowledged boundary lines I'd probably pull the deed to see what it said. Fish, there'll be a test later. End of lesson. JF

I went there cuz Waterloo guys were better partiers, and the girls prettier. Of course I didn't tell my new wife any of that back then. JF

No problem. I was perhaps a little tired. Today I probably wouldn't even have noted it. JF

Thanks Jen I appreciate that coming from another realtor. JF

I wasn't sure, but I've had a long day in class followed by a 90 minute drive home in the rain. Maybe I'm a little testy tonite. JF

If that was for me I'm a Realtor in Ontario and have been registered and working for 35 years. Nowadays I don't sell so much as my time is pretty well taken up with running an office, developing training and mentoring programs for our company and teaching aspiring realtors their pre-registration courses along with some continuing ed for the industry. That's why I asked Cliff for a little time on this. I'm kinda tied up teaching a course in Hamilton right now. Oh yeah, and I know quite a few lawyers. I've worked with some of them building the legal forms we use throughout Ontario as well as doing research for a few for real estate litigation. I may be fooling myself but I like to think I know more than the average Joe about real estate in Ontario. Any questions? And I've bought a house or two in my day. JF

Your lawyer explained it pretty well. In general it pays to fix problems caused by your property for abutting properties. But that being said I've heard of some payouts that didn't make sense to me based on my understanding of Title Insurance. There are a lot of things to be considered here. I've messaged Cliff with a few thoughts that I'd rather not share publically. http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/consumerbrochures/undstitins.pdf This explains it quite nicely. Be careful reading it fast because there are a few somewhat convoluted sentences that deserve very careful reading with an open mind. JF