Canuck2fan

While that sounds good in theory, it's what got us into this mess in the first place. The USA was so eager to arm Syrians against Assad, they ended up arming the people who became ISIS!

 

You are right about one thing though, It has to be people from the region that put boots on the ground if there is a ground assault. It has to be Muslim nations. Infidels marching on the caliphate is exactly what Islamic State wants.

That is a fair point about arming more people over there... it would also be playing into the hands of the military industrial complex.

The thing is the men in the those refugee camps should want to fight back given the chance. If they don't why should anybody?

 

They are not just giving preference, it will be exclusively women and children and families.. This is a new development and shows they are worried about the wrong people getting in to Canada. I'm worried too, to be honest.

 

 

 

I chopped up one of your posts again.

 

So we agree there are potential dangers. We agree the cost will be in the billions of dollars. I still say "why?". We are possibly putting Canadians in danger and spending huge dollars on this when we have people that need help right here?

I don't have the answer of why we let some of our people slip through the cracks.... I don't know why CEO's need to make 300 times on average what the worker on the floor does in North America now. Back when CEO's were happy making 8 to 9 times what the folks on the floor made North America was a manufacturing power house.... now not so much. The experts tell us we are better off and we haven't voted in anyone who says different?

I don't know why as I said we have given corporations who are not people despite what the goofs on the Supreme Court in the U.S. think, 684 Billion in welfare in the last 20 yrs while we still have children living in poverty, homeless folks, and people dying while waiting for health care... The same thing applies it is a democracy and we haven't voted in anyone who thinks this wrong enough to stop it.

We have also always borrowed money in the last 40 yrs to send as aid to war torn or disaster hit countries around the world no matter what party was in charge... because nobody WE put in charge would NOT do it... (also I don't recall any government getting dumped in the next election because of it)

I am aware that a few radicals could slip though, and it could turn out to be a deadly mistake. However, since 911 the "free" societies of the world have given up so many freedoms for our "safety". We have peed away TRILLIONS of dollars we had to borrow to fight them over there and gotten no where. We have added layer upon layer of security all because the boogeyman might come do something.

One freedom we gave up fishing related that burns me to no end, is that when I was a kid we could walk out on the north pier at Goderich and fish for perch when a boat was in. Since 911 that is verboten, because a boat might be sabotaged....?

If we keep backing down from doing the right and just things that were not even up for debate for 911, then they have won, without doing anything. I believe the vast majority of the people in the camps are running from the terrorists. Just as I believe if they were from any other area and religion this wouldn't even be a discussion. They need help we need immigrants lets make it a win win situation.

Part of doing that will be good screening, just as vigilance from people here once they arrive. Now it is coming out that French authorities didn't connect the dots before the attack and they might have stopped it they had.... So keeping an eye out and reporting anything strange would be advisable and if that is profiling lets keep it up because it is also common sense in today's world.

 

 

So, Toronto Police have to stop profiling, but its OK for the Prime Minister,,,cause he is just trying to help

Not sure how it is a NEGATIVE kind of profiling by giving women with children and men with families first...

Not for nothing but for the ideal situation in my opinion would be to arm any fit single males of fighting age to the teeth train them how to fight and have them go kick some isis butt and take back their own country...

I heard Canada will now only take in Syrian refugees who are women, children or families. not single men.

 

Sounds like somebody is getting a little nervous about their promise.

I was under the impression that women widowed or not with children, then men with families were always going to be given priority... I doubt the original goal was to just take in 25000 18 to 40 yr old men of fighting age exclusively like the neocons have been spouting.

If Trudeau wasn't nervous about keeping his promise he would stupid....

The logistics of doing something so huge so quickly, the hate on all sides of the issue, and finally the terrorist attacks last week. Would make any sane person be concerned and trying to do everything possible to have a safe outcome.

The sign of real leadership is following through even when faced with potential dangers and tough obstacles. Something we haven't had in a leader in quite a while at any level in this country.

Damn straight! I am my brothers keeper but the last time I checked charity still began at home.

Welfare to corporations over the last 20 yrs is about the worst form of charity we give away... It used to be that companies would re-invest here giving back the "gift" by creating good paying sustainable jobs for our citizens. At a time when they paid a much higher rate of tax.

Since dysfunctional trickle down economics were invented corporations take the gifts, pay less tax as a percentage of profits. Hire many less people full time with benefits at living wages. All while EVERY indicator of productivity is up by workers here in Canada....

Then to add insult injury a lot of corps take the gift and then offshore more jobs anyway as they hide profits in off shore tax havens....

Stop the bleeding there and there would be plenty of money to look after the needy here AND bring in immigrants/refugees to bolster economic growth that are needed because we are not breeding enough...

The old system worked pretty damn well in this country for over a century, until we decided to jump into the fallacy of the equalization of wealth to the rest of the world that is called globalization.

All it has done is it has allowed 85 single individuals to own more than half the world's wealth. Pretty good deal for the 85 NO wonder they won't let it be stopped....

I think it is relevant in that this is 1.5 billion taxpayer dollars that they are spending, they originally said it would cost about 1/5 of that. $240,000.00 to settle a family of 4 (and that doesn't include all the medical, dental........ costs). Totally rediculious!

 

It would be different if we were flush with money and the Canadians that are already here were taken care of but that isn't the case. Our health care system is already being slashed (because we can't afford to pay Dr.s and nurses; medication costs......) We have seniors living below the poverty line (because there is no more money to give them).

 

It's fine to keep a promise, if you can afford it!

In the last 20 yrs Canadian tax payers have been able to afford to borrow/finance/spend 684 Billion on corporate Welfare and have not looked after our own citizens any better than we do now....

Maybe if we address that issue then we would have the money to look after the programs you say we aren't and have still enough left over so 1.2 billion on refugees wouldn't be so offensive.

Cheney and Rumsfeld say thank you!

Only after they both go CHA CHING a few hundred million times.... LOL

To a civilian, its not smart.

 

To others its highly profitable....

The Iraq wars were 'transfer mechanisms' to transfer $ from the American taxpayer into the hands of the owners of Haliburton et. al. Eisenhower warned about the 'military-industrial complex' many years ago(He probably coined the term). His warnings have not been heeded.

You two must have read the book Drift by Rachel Maddel... It illustrates about just HOW the military industrial complex got the U.S. taxpayer to spend more than the next 26 in the world COMBINED on "defense" and 24 or so of them are are ALLIES.

With the unrest unchecked it will spread. The idea of ignoring or hoping peace will overcome evil is not a realistic expectation from a rotted seed. The soldiers of the world who live and die for your peace paid with their time in the forces and some with their lives. We all need to respect their sacrifice and to not let their deaths be in vain just because we don't feel the evil will reach our personal lives. You have as much chance of levitating a glass of water as wishing Isil will become peaceful. I will stop here with the hope that we appreciate our people in the military and support them in their mission that gives you the safety and the ability to stay at home and wish for peace.

 

Disheartened by the lack of support of our military

 

 

Art

No one respects Canadian or US troops more than I do.

I respect them so much that rather send them over to be killed as canon fodder in yet another failed PEACE after a briefly successful war. I want there to be a remote chance of them not having to go back in a couple of years. NO ONE has an answer of how that is possible or likely to happen, until we do lets save our troops until there is, if that isn't supporting the military then I guess I am guilty.

How many of our finest have to give their lives, limbs or sanity in trying to protect the people over there only to see after we lose interest and pull out the rest of our troops, a group of worse thugs pop up and do even more evil in a few years or less?

Rest assured though that once the idiots in charge send them into any war I support them totally and unabashedly. Not only while they are there but for whatever they need when they come home.

I just don't see wasting their lives as being very smart in this case, when the people there WILL not stand up for themselves after we hand them back their country, as evidenced by how quickly Iraq's military fled when ISIS started up...

 

Didn't they launch the Do Little Raid, B-25's off a aircraft carrier and bombed Tokyo very early in the war, the first year, I don't think a land base was really necessary.

Yes the raid you were talking about was done from aircraft carrier but they had to land in China and Russia.

The a bombs were dropped from B-29 Superfortresses WAY too big and heavy to take off from any aircraft carrier.

The Enola Gay who dropped Little Boy flew from Tinian and so did Bockscar who dropped Fat Man.

Which would not have been possible unless naval and ground forces took back the island of Tinian

 

 

Well, if you turn the desert into glass, you wipe out everybody?

And it ruins the ability to extract the precious dead dinosaur juice...

 

WW 2, the war with Japan on the Pacific front was ended pretty quick with air power and a couple of bombs after a few years of conventional warfare.

WOW what an interesting view of the situation... The few years of conventional warfare that caused millions of deaths, both in the armed forces who fought and the civilians who had the misfortune to be in the way. Were the only REASON the U.S. got close enough to Japan so they have an air base to sortie from so they could drop the a bombs. The land and naval wars were far more important than a footnote...

Cram I agree about nukes.....

It is asinine to use nukes for any reason except in retaliation and then it only makes sense because if you don't the other guy will have no reason not to keep lobbing them

Then again if your are Russia with HUGE oil reserves you can't give away right now with the glut clogging up sales... Having a lot of the oil in the Middle East is glowing green might get your former customers back.

How did the tires hold up to that kind of speed? LOL

How much do you want to bet that those "trainers" are going to end up being targets! ISIS don't have the necessary equipment to stop the jets but in a ground fight they don't play by the rules.

Rules in a fight? Did you not start this thread by saying, if someone ever said to you, do you want to step outside, you dropped them right then and there? LOL

The only reason any rules exist in warfare is because you don't want our wounded killed or prisoners killed. ISIS is NOT following those rules so do we lower ourselves to that level? The trouble is, if the rest of the world follows suit where does it end? More importantly how does that type of warfare damage our soldiers mentally. It also then gives ISIS every justification to carry on as they have been (which they probably will regardless) is our sense of fair war a waste of time with them? Next war are all the rules off the table for it too?

It does seem like some of the Kurdish forces have decided that taking ISIS or ISIL prisoners is a waste of time because they would rather be dead so why not grant them their wish.

As for the "trainers" being targets they most definitely will be and will probably still accept the mission. The fact is the people from the countries involved HAVE to stand up for themselves at some point... If they don't want to be the constant victims of these type of thugs...

EVERY time we go in and save them from one diabolical dicktator we create a backlash that puts even MORE an more evil group of thugs in charge within a year or two... Name one instance in history in which the west has fought a war and given a lasting democratic peace in the Middle East? The best we have done is put up puppet Dicktators who through murder and terror hold power for a bit, until they too turn on the west.

Again I ask if anyone can name a war that was won with just air power.... Anyone? Anyone?

 

Except if they have oil.

Before anybody even knew what oil role was going to play, the west was invading there to preserve the Christian holy lands during the crusades. Then it was to protect the commerce along the silk road from the far east. Then it was to keep other countries from gaining too much influence in the lands surrounding the easiest sailing routes.... Now it just seems like a bad habit...

Gwynne Dyer has an interesting take on the whole mess....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/opinion/74058520/paris-attacks-the-terrorist-strategy

I think saying they pay a "hefty sum" is misleading. Paying their own transportation costs is common sense IMO, whoever pays it, family, friends, themselves. Also, I think I remember hearing an airline (AC ?) will cover that, self advertising for the airline.

 

The link you posted, I'm pretty sure most of that is going to go out the window in a situation like this.

 

I want to help people but we have lots of people who need help in our community/ country too.

Maybe hefty sum is wrong then in this case, if those rules go out the window only time will tell.

Believe me I agree we should help people here first and foremost ALWAYS!!!

Unfortunately that has never the case for some reason. Even when broke by any sane measure most our western governments have consistently borrowed billions more to give aid around the world... So if we are going to do it the real question should be which peoples need what we can't afford to give the most? Way above my ability to answer. I get the feeling though that a lot of those 25000 refugees will be picked because they have certain skills we need to build the economy.

 

I chopped up your post I admit. I'm more asking questions than arguing.

 

These displaced people, with only the shirts on their backs are going to pay a hefty sum?

 

Justin said 25 000 between now and January 1st. I don't doubt you know a couple of solid Syrian families here, but an influx of that magnitude in a month and a half, there's no way there is going to be proper background checks. I'm all for immigration but not with the compromise of our safety.

According to the link I posted refugees have to PAY back the cost of their travel to get here if provided by the Canadian government... For some families that could be 10K. Which could more than some of might have made in their entire lives. Also if any refugees have families here they could be sponsored by the family here and the fees paid that way... One of the families I know two of the brothers have been working those 70 hr weeks to raise the cash to sponsor their relatives.... They have already had family members killed before ISIS started up, so they are very motivated to get out any remaining family that they can and they will PAY gladly any amount to do it.

I absolutely agree the number of 25000 is scary in the amount of time and probably won't happen. If some of the people in the camps got away with their documents that would certainly speed up the process for them. Also does anyone really think it actually takes 6 days of some government official looking at an application for every minute of those 6 days to get approval under normal circumstances? Much less 6 months I would wager of lot of that "time" the file is just sitting in a folder.

The refugee camps might have in place systems to vet applicants as well... that could help speed things up.

Lastly, if there any concern with any refugee what would be wrong with having them housed in military barracks or in a similar way until they are fully checked out. Is win win for our safety and theirs too. Here even in a "camp" I can't think of a better word, at least they would be feed, have clean water and some medical attention. If they are as bad off as reports would indicate then having to stay somewhere like that has to be better than being where they are now. Just while we dot the i's and cross a few ts on any questions. If the answers are wrong they planes bringing them here can take some back just as easily...

I hope you're right and it's a disaster for ISIS. The do nothing because it's not in my backyard ideology only encourages these pigs. They WILL NOT stop until they destroy the world. How many innocent people must suffer and die before we ALL get it.? Just about the only thing that I agree with Donald Trump, "...bomb the s_ _t out of them....". These animals will behead anyone they don't like. They have no morals or values that belong in this world. France has pledged to stand up and deal with savagery with military might. It may not be the best move but I have yet to hear (including from this board) any better ones. Just ask any one of the 129 families grieving their losses in France or any of the 350+ wounded survivors over there.

 

Got any better ideas? I didn't think so! Maybe Justin will finally grow a pair and do the right thing.

 

 

muddler

Sorry but NO war has ever been won just by bombing... If it were that simple Vietnam and Afghanistan wouldn't have been war zones for almost 30 yrs each. The total amount of bombs dropped on Vietnam was MORE than the total dropped in WWII by everybody in every theater of war.... Look at the size of Vietnam on a map it should have been a crater from border to border. The U.S. still lost that one when they pulled out the troops on the ground.

No one can even calculate how many thousands of tons of bombs have been dropped on Afghanistan in the last 30 yrs and nothing is even close to being won there yet....

Until the rest of the world is ready to go in hunt down and exterminate every terrorist. Then do the same to every potential terrorist that bombing and being there CREATES. With boots on the ground and an occupying force FOREVER, there isn't going to be a long term peace or stability in the region. No matter how many bombs they drop, and as long as there is an occupying force the people we are trying to "liberate" are most likely going to fight it, anyway they can. Just as you or I would if China invaded us tomorrow....

I keep asking how many times can we go over crush whoever is causing a crap storm only to get fed up and leave to have it all repeat over again? As soon as the white hats leave the terrorists seep back in.

The vicious cycle is the ordinary citizens there for some reason can't or won't save themselves no matter how much training and support we give them. Yet when the rest of the world does it for the ordinary person there, it just breeds another army of radicals who will as you say kill anything and anyone. Who isn't a part of their savage little group....

It seems the Canadian Council of Imams HAVE condemned ISIS for the violent bunch of thugs they are... Why isn't this message getting more and more air time though?

http://www.canadiancouncilofimams.com/2014/08/for-immediate-release-canadian-council-of-imams-warns-canadian-muslims-about-isis-and-its-deviant-nature/

As for the view immigrants/refugees arrive here and immediately enjoy a free ride that is ABSOLUTE hogwash. If they arrive through the system they pay a hefty sum to get here.... Read the facts not the stupid urban myth going around Facebook.

http://ccrweb.ca/en/refugees-and-income-assistance-rebutting-chain-email-pensioners-myth

As for some of the Syrian refugees being terrorists of course that could happen with any refugee, just like anybody can be run over by a bus tomorrow. The government has always had check and balances in place with screening to try to prevent criminals of any kind from immigrating here and it has worked pretty well so far so. So as long as the same procedures are followed even if they are sped up the chances are the system will catch out pretenders before they get here....

Also I know a couple families of Syrian immigrants and I have to say they are some of the most genuine people I have ever met. Also they are to a person much more hard working than I pretend to be.... they work 50 or 70 hrs, without complaint a week, me I like to go fishing once in a while.

Have you ever read the quran?

 

If you kill one you have killed the earth is a quote i remember in there(although i might have skewed that abit)

 

If your not armed its kinda hard to fight militants that carry heavy weaponry ie a shotgun wont do crap against a rocket launcher etc

Nope I have never read the Koran... Never read the bible either.

Maybe if they would educate peace means EVERY living person instead of zapping somebody during a jihad equals virgins in heaven from the cradle a lot less rocket launchers might be picked up in anger....

The West is guilty of horrendously evil actions in how we have treated the people there for centuries, and that can't be undone, but maybe by forgetting about the oil there and just leaving them the hell alone might make them a little less inclined to murder us all.

It just seems so crazy to keep going over there every few years and having a good war, declaring the problem solved. Then leaving vast arsenals there for the next disgruntled mad men to pick up and start the cycle all over again.... The military complex loves it though probably because it means every couple years they get to showcase the latest and greatest killing machines.

So we take the bait and wipe all of ISIS that we can identify off the face of the earth, with the fury of Gods own thunder.... Next week talisishezzbalahban is back bigger, badder and bolder than ever. A month later we wipe them off the face of the earth.... The following week Alkettalihezzbalahban is back and claims credit for even more disgusting acts of terrors. Lather rinse repeat

When will the peaceful Muslims of the world finally stand up and start to clean up the miscreants that are abusing their faith as excuse to kill and maim anyone because they just simply sick and twisted individuals?

How about the Clemster admitting if his proboscis had not been so firmly lodged in Harper's nether regions he might have gone a different way with cancelling the long form census?

Quote from an article in the Mop and Pail...

"Conservative MP Tony Clement, the former industry minister who cited privacy concerns when he cancelled the long-form census of 2011 and replaced it with a voluntary national household survey, said he would not criticize the Liberals for undoing his efforts.

Mr. Clement told reporters on Thursday that the decision to bring in a voluntary census had been made “collectively” in 2010 by the Conservative government. In hindsight, he said, “I think I would have done it differently.”

There may be better ways to capture data while protecting the privacy and security of people, said Mr. Clement: “I’ll take the blame for that – I should have posed that question six years ago.”

End quote"

Is the Clemster maneuvering for a stab at the big chair of the CCP

How does the rest of the world PERMANENTLY win the peace in a region where there are so many folks who would JOYFULLY kill anybody not in their "clan" rather than look at them? The rest of the world has been winning wars then just as quickly losing the peace there since records began being kept.

I am all for the common person in those lands being able to live a life with the same democratic opportunities we have, but don't those people have to stand up and say listen enough is enough and help themselves? We seem to cause a lot more problems when the rest of the world goes in and deposes one dictating tribe or clan that are inhumane only to see the next group be subhuman or worse.

Why is it always the maniacs in groups or a lone madman who winds up seizing the arsenals that were left there by the last invading army, and raining death and terror on their own kind with those guns we either gave them or left there for the common folk to use to protect themselves?

10 Milion for a up grade. You're kidding.

A 1 milion dollar place would be enough

And it just started!!!!!

Sadly, all PM's for last 40 years have been too afraid to do what needs to be done. If it wasn't a historical building we could rip it down and put up a damn fine replacement for a couple million.... Since it is a historical building all the work has to be done WITHOUT changing the appearance or destroying the heritage. Work on historical buildings is NEVER cheap because the materials aren't readily available at home depot and the workers with the skills to replicate how things used to be done won't work for free.

24 Sussex it isn't just a home for the Prime Minister, it is our White House or 10 Downing Street, where Canada's leader is supposed to represent our great country to other world and business leaders. It doesn't leave a good impression to have rain water dripping into the guests soup during a formal dinner.

The U.S. went through this in 49 when Truman was forced to move out of the White House and a 55+ million dollar renovation, in today's dollars was done. Here is a link to some images from that project.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=truman+white+house+reconstruction&espv=2&biw=1180&bih=510&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CBsQsARqFQoTCKvexrSG6MgCFcEmHgod4g8Jww