MJL

I'm no catfish expert but I do a lot of carp fishing in high current/fast water type of areas - I imagine the techniques used to catch both fish are similar. If you want to hold bottom, A 3-5oz "Grippa-lead" is ideal. Anglers International (who also distribute Raven products) are bringing in these leads in to retailers across southern Ontario - Angling Specialties in Scarborough has them. They look almost like donuts except they're egg shaped with bumps on both sides. They grip the bottom nicely. You do need a rod suitable enough to cast them.

You can also do what steelheaders do which is to use pencil lead or slinkies to drift on bottom (i.e. bottom bounce). Catfish (and in my experience carp) don't mind hitting moving bait as it bumps along the bottom.

Hope this helps

Fantastic catches!

Nothing smells and feels better on the hands than carp slime

I fished one trib on Thursday and it was totally devoid of steel and suckers...Fishing for carp doesn't seem half bad this time of year...Looks like I might be able to Christen the new carp rod sooner than I expected.

WTG you two

I think Danbo was referring to using the inner tube, you won't need to use tape.

I've got this cool shrink grip material I use for my carp rod butt grips and I would imagine it probably would work the same as Danbo's method - albeit a more permanent solution.

For me, I normally line up the reel seat to have the butt end line up with my elbow. I hate having long butt grips - I find they get caught up in my wading jacket when casting and trying to land fish.

I don't use sliding rings to attach my reels. I prefer fixed reel seats. My dad uses electrical tape on his sliding rings...He never had a problem.

Great job CC...They're small but they're still so beautiful.

Hopefully I'll be able to get out this week. After 7months of not fishing, suckers don't seem all that bad.

I've been using Raven and Maxima for years and never had a problem with line twist. Are you side casting or pull/wallis casting? You'll get a lot of line twist if you side cast. Swivels should help alleviate twist to some degree.

P-Line Halo is a fluorocarbon and fluorocarbons generally are more prone to kinking and twisting when the weather is colder out. Fluorocarbons also sink much faster than mono on the drifts...I don't use them for my mainlines.

No clue if noodle rod sales are on the decline. They're still popular in the states where centrepinning hasn't caught on yet. I use mine for bottom bouncing small creeks where a 13'+ rod would just be too big...Even 10'6" is a little on the long side for some areas I fish. TBH, other than line rating differences and the fact that you can bend most noodle rods right down through the handle into a perfect C or an O, I never really found a difference. You can float fish with them if you want.

When I'm salmon fishing, I leave the noodle rods at home and bring out my meat stick (10' Shimano covergence 8-17lb) and either put a spinning reel on it for the pier or a centrepin on for the trib. I'll also use my 8wt fly rods or my Raven IM9. Most of the time, I'm using 8-12lb fluoro leads for the chinnies and the way you can haul them in in record time is pretty cool...No need to run a fish up and down a stream for half an hour or fight them to exhaustion.

"outperform" is such a subjective word based on what we individually perceive as being "best"

It depends what you're looking for in a rod.

- Fishing for long periods of time? A lighter weight rod will let you do it (high modulus graphite)

- Need back bone? A properly designed rod taper will allow you to haul in fish

- Need a quick responsive tip? high modulus graphite will minimize tip bounce and improve tip flex recovery

- Need an indestructible rod? Go fibreglass or grab an ugly stick

As anglers we want a rod to do more than one thing listed above - Simply put it's value for the $ and that's why rod manufacturers spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in research and development.

A 13'6" rod should bend however the manufacturer designed it to be...There are no set rules and no industry standards.

The basic trend today is lighter, faster, more responsive float rods with backbone. Fluorocarbon has allowed us to move away from the classic noodle actioned rods like the old House of Hardy and Lews float rods (where dropping down to 2lb mono leaders was normal) to ultra fast tapered spey-float conversions that are getting more popular nowadays (my friend built a float rod based on a Euro-tapered spey blank - He uses 10lb fluoro leaders with 15lb main lines for his big water trib fishing).

I'm used to the older progressive actions that bend down to the handle or midway through the blank using 8lb mainlines, 4-6lb leaders yet hold good amounts of reserve power in the butt section. To me the newer spey conversions don't feel right - at least for the waters I fish.

WOW, MJL, no wonder you know so much about this topic

since you used to build rods .. wow, very interesting insights

 

I started salmon fishing last year and noticed my 11'0 noodle rod made of IM-6 bents too easily

when there is a big one (15+ lb). It went to a point that the rod was almost bent 150 degrees

and still did not have enough power to bring it in. The spinning reel I was using was at maximum

and still could not stop it ... so, it took me forever to land it.

 

This year, with the 13'6 IM-9 and centerpin reel, i found it is eaiser to

bring in 15+ lb rainbow to shore than my previous equipment.

It did not matter how hard the fish fiught, the most bending only occured at the top 1/3 portion of the rod in which

i believe brings more backbone power. Therefore,

I started questioning the differene between rods (the only difference between centerpin and spinning

is just the full non-skip stop)

A noodle rod designed to handle 2-6lb line (I'm assuming) will handle very differently to a float rod designed to handle 4-10lb line regardless of the material used. I have an older 13'6" Raven IM9 in my arsenal and it is easily one of the heaviest actioned factory float rods on the market - Beefier than a Loomis IMX which has a higher modulus rating (It's all in the taper and design). You can make a further comparison of Taper VS materials for backbone/power by looking at our great lakes float rods with high modulus graphite (IM9, IMX, GLX) and compare that with what anglers traditionally use for steelhead on the west coast (Sage 3113mb - 11'3" (8-17lb) - GraphiteII - probably equivalent to IM6 graphite). My friends were telling me, the Raven IM9 stood no chance to fresh run steel on the Sol Duc, Hoh or Skeena rivers they fished.

Well, i am a bookworm jerk .. so I am always looking for facts and scientific ways

to explain things I see.

 

jurgons like IM-6, IM-8 or whatever PSI rating on materials bother me alot

when shopping around and unforturnately, I have not been able to find

anything references to compare them with (graphs or something)

 

i would assuming IM-9 is lighter and stiffer than IM-6 is. Hence, the IM-9 is

preferred for longer rods to avoid "tip sagging" and to have less weight.

However, those are just assumptions or "manufacturer claims" rather than

actual scientific evidence. I would like to see something like "elongation", "ultimate

tensile strength" graphs instead. what about the PSI ratings? PSI is a stress unit ..

how is it related to the rod response and how it bends?

 

I know, I know, I ask too many questions which most people might not care ..

but what can I do .. I am a bookworm ..

Tip sag can be reduced on any blank regardless of the material used. Winston, Sage and Loomis Canada line their guides based on the straightest axis rather than the spine (often the spine effect is on the straightest axis but not always). They look for natural curves in the blank when they line up the pieces and have the curve in the tip section point upwards...They then put guides on the opposite side to counteract this curve and reduce tip sag which would have otherwise occurred if they put guides on the opposite side of the blank.

Here's a link from Winston rods. Go to company films and take the "Winston tour" to see how they line up their guides.

http://www.winstonrods.com/winston_channel.html

You can also play around with guide sizes and materials - use lighter titanium framed guides over stainless steel. Use smaller match guides over standard frame, etc. I imagine the difference would be minimal but theoretically there would be a difference. Some fly guys I know switch their snake guides to single footed guides to reduce swing weight on the blank.

For the ultimate in "performance", beyond manipulating the amount of resin bonding the graphite fibers, you can change the scrim materials used for reinforcement in the blank. Even though blanks are stated to be 100% graphite, most manufacturers use small amounts of fibreglass as a scrim material for additional strength . Loomis GLX and Sage (G5 technology) are the only companies I can think of off hand which use graphite as both a blank material and scrim material - The trade off to ultra light and ultra responsive is the brittle nature of ultra high modulus graphite.

There are numerous factors at play which affect the action and performance of the rod beyond purely the type of graphite used.

It's an interesting topic for sure. I used to build fly rods from scrap blanks of different manufacturers in the hopes of finding the perfect distance fly casting machine and did a lot of my own testing with different tapers and materials.

For graphite, higher modulus graphite blanks are generally lighter in weight and more responsive. IMO the action of a rod is determined more by the taper of the blank than the materials used. I actually don't pay much attention to "IM" ratings much anymore when I purchase rods and go by the overall feel of the blank.

I own steelhead rods from 8'6" to 13'6" made up of various types of graphites.

That report was simply AMAZING! Beauty pics to boot.

The Muskegon is certainly a much larger river than the ones I've fished most of my life. No doubt a challenge finding features.

If you don't mind me asking, how much would a float trip like that cost? Shoot me a PM if you'd like. School ends for me this Wednesday and I'm sure it would make a pretty sweet graduation present - HINT HINT DAD

Thanks for your comments guys

I'd love to remain close to the hobby that I love even if I can't do it all. If anyone's ever in the Scarborough area and wants to learn the basics of rod-building (like how to tie guides on a rod), let me know and I'll gladly spend a few hours showing you the basics.

Thanks again guys

Fantastic report!

That's something I've always wanted to do. Catching one on the fly is on my life's to-do list. Currently saving up for a trip down to Mexico.

Those fish are so beautiful...I'm speechless.

The Rouge is open to south of HWY 2 for trout and salmon all year. Every year they close the gates for the winter and open it up in Spring (Usually sometime in April). I would imagine the little hill you have to go down to enter the park would be killer if it was icy. I remember one time they closed the park off because it got flooded...I remember there was a picture in the newspaper of a guy fishing from the top of the hill at the entrance when it flooded really bad.

Pure beauty those fish. Thanks for posting this report.

Congrats Carole and happy belated birthday

Many of you know about my love of carp fishing and some of you send PM’s asking when my next adventure is going to be. Thanks for your enthusiasm in the subject. There however was a time when I spent just as many hours on the banks of my local tribs floating roe downstream, tossing mepps spinners upstream and swinging big gaudy flies past logjams. Steelhead have taken a back seat in my life mainly because of school. My first semester in university was the last time I really put serious time on the rivers. I earned great marks that semester but come second, I really started feeling the strain and that was it – I made the choice to concentrate on my studies. Plus the 1.5hr commute from the Humber (my after-class haunt) to back home sucked during rush hour with a 13’ float rod in the subway and bus. For the last 3.5 yrs I missed out on some great runs of steel because exams and assignments happened to coincide with spring thaw and the autumn rains. For the last 3yrs, the trout opener was the only time I managed to really get out for steel.

Just before my sabbatical from steelhead, I purchased a mid-section and tip-section of an old 13'6" Diamondback float rod blank from another angler. I had the intention to turn it into a drift rod for bottom bouncing or for tossing spinners. The blank had obviously seen better days. It suffered from a bad case of pier rash with a lot of its paint missing and its clear coat scratched in many places. Some of the paint was stripped off when the original owner took the guides off. Yet, it still had a beautiful action. 3 months later, I found an unfinished butt section of the same model blank on the internet. I bought it. The decal was slightly blemished and the owner sold it to me cheap. In total I paid around $65 for all 3 pieces.

For 3 years the blank leaned in the corner of my bedroom gathering dust waiting to be built. In that time I totally forgot about it – I also didn’t have much time in between school and carp season to actually build it. It wasn’t until I attended this year’s fishing & boat show did I remember I had it - I was in the Natural Sports booth fondling a custom Sage float rod when the light hit me. When I got home, I examined the blank and did what any rational person would do…I picked up a dull x-acto knife and scraped most of the paint off tip and mid section – Hence the “molting” part. Off to the store for some new guides and some thread.

After completing my homework and assignments, I spent an hour or two (or three) each night working on it. In total I spent around 45-50hrs on the build between mid-February and late March

A few pics I took during the build

My parents let me set this thing up in the living room for a month. I had a few problems with dust landing on the wet epoxy. That’s a heater just behind it to maintain optimal epoxy curing temps of 70+ degrees F.

I had to ‘snake’ the rod through a piano bench, a chair and 2 sets of bar stools but it worked well.

Turning motor

Here are a few pics of the finished rod:

The finished rod – George at Angling Specialties turned out a beautiful cork handle for me on the lathe

A beautiful wooden reel-seat I found in my rod-building drawer – Both stylish and functional.

In the sun, the rosewood glows bright orange

You can see the difference between the old paint job (Butt section -left) and the plain graphite (mid & tip: centre and right)

I left some paint at the ferrules and covered whatever scratches with a couple coats of epoxy.

The Butt section – Also with the “molting theme”

Personalization on the other side

In all the years I built rods, I’ve never come across a project with so many problems. It was as if they were the work of higher beings. Some of those being:

- Weird dust landing into wet epoxy while I was in the washroom

- Bubbles in epoxy caused by working in a cold room

- Fish-eyes in epoxy caused by an unknown airborne oil or silicone source

- Having rod sections coming undone while turning on the motor and having partially hardened epoxy sag on guide wraps

- Having brushes fall apart while applying epoxy and the hairs burying themselves inside the finish

All of which in each case I decided to strip the affected guides off and rebuild.

This will probably be my last build for a while. In the later stages of the build (namely the gluing and assembly of the handle and some epoxy work on the butt section) I had to have George at Angling Specialties do it for me. Over the last year and a bit, I’ve developed an allergy to epoxy and this last build had me with rashes and hives all over my arms and neck. I’ve never seen it so bad. It took 4-5 days till they partially cleared up…It’s not something I want to push further in the future. I’m a little sad to be giving up rod building for the foreseeable future (or at least till I can find a hazmat suit to wear or a suitable substitute to epoxy) BUT owning rods custom built by masters of the trade like George and Tom Cheng from Angling Specialties, John Collina, Randy from Natural Sports and Spiel doesn’t seem like a bad thing. It’s not the most beautiful custom rod out there…Actually my friends kid me saying I have a weird sense of taste but I love the way it turned out. 11 more days till I’m done school and graduate. Dying to take her out for a spin.

Hope this has inspired some of you to take a second thought at your old tackle.

Back to taxation and economics homework I go

For a lot of my dirty water fishing, I switch from the 4-6lb leaders for my clear water fishing to anywhere from 6lb to 12lb...No need for finesse.

I find fish hold pretty close to the bank in shallow water out of the heavy current when the water's high and dirty. My favourite baits to use when it's really dirty are jumbo sized black woolly buggers tied on size 1-4 hooks or toonie sized roe bags tied in black mesh. I imagine both would provide good silhouettes under dark or dirty water conditions. I've also had luck holding or swinging medium sized Kwikfish and plugs back and forth in the current near shore - I add crayfish scent to mine for confidence.

If it's really bad, do as Silverstreak mentioned...Find another trib that's clear or grab a coffee for a few hours and hope for the best when you return.

Congrats on your outing...Quality fish...Quality pics

Top angling

I don't use much roe but when I do, I get 1 small container of loose salmon roe from the tackle shop which usually lasts me a season (1 season being spring, winter OR fall) - I usually spend about $10-15 on roe per year . I haven't found a difference in catch rates between salmon, steelhead or croaker (farm raised trout) roe.

As far as stripping trout & salmon of their spawn and then releasing it, here's what 1 MNR representative had to say about it (Note regs might have changed within the last 8 years so best to contact them):

Question 125:

Regarding the collection of trout/salmon roe for personal use as bait. Is it legal to partially "strip" a female salmon or trout of roe then return the fish to the river, providing the fish has been caught legally? It seems that this activity would fall under molesting or harrassing the fish but the alternative, killing the fish for the eggs, seems even worse.

Asked June 28/00

Answer from the MNR

There is nothing in the Fisheries Act or the Ontario Fishery Regulations which prohibits this particular activity. Personally, if I was taken out of my natural elements and stripped of my eggs, chances are I would consider myself molested!! On the other hand, there is no provision in the law with regard to molesting or harassing fish. However, you should be aware that chances are that such a fish, after the handling is likely going to die anyway.

That being said, eggs, by definition, are fish. While we have never limited the number of roe sacs which one may possess from legally taken fish, when you handle the fish as you have indicated that fish is deemed to be 'captured and retained'. Therefore each fish that you perform this activity upon would be considered part of your daily limit.

From:

http://www.outdoorontario.net/AskMNR/mnrfaqfish.html

I don't like harvesting any fish unless I plan to eat them (Just my own personal values). Steelhead and salmon from Lake O don't appeal to my palate. Today steelheaders have the options to use all sorts of baits, lures and flies along with spawn and by using only 1 type of bait (or technique), you're really missing out on some great action.

Crazyhook those are great flies. They look like fish catchers to me.

If you have time, you can try coating the eyes and heads with 30min epoxy for added durability against sharp teeth and coral...You'll find your flies will last a little bit longer.

Here are some patterns I tied for my pike fishing which might work well for your trip. All are about 4-5" tied on size 2 mustad signature hooks.

Down deep clouser

Deceivers (white + white & chartreuse)

Blue + white Polar fiber minnow (head and stick-on eyes coated with epoxy) - very easy tie and has a tantalizing darting action when stripped.

WTG C & C on your trip. Those are some real monsters.

As far as nets go, on most occasions I don’t use one. My rubber net is heavy and it’s another thing to carry…I’m lazy. If I’m alone and a fish takes me for a run downstream, most likely I’ll forget about the net during the chase.

Nets however are good for:

- Minimizing the length of time needed to play a fish. Whether or not it’s sporting or unsporting, it’s really up to the angler to decide. I’ve seen hundreds upon hundreds of anglers (both experienced and inexperienced) attempt to tail or beach fish only to fight them to exhaustion. Some fish just don’t quit (Skamania are prime examples) and some anglers just don’t know how to tail a fish. Lactic acid build up is one of the primary reasons why catch and release doesn’t work 100% of the time even when they swim off – It’s delayed mortality. Get them in quick and release them quick. When temps are warmer (eg post opener), it’s more of a bigger deal to land them quick before they exhaust themselves to the point of no return.

- Landing fish on shelf ice – If you’re 5’7” like I am standing over an 8’ deep pool on unstable shelf ice trying to land a fish, a net should be with you. It also makes a great rescue pole.

I personally favour the fine-meshed and rubber nets for my angling.

Cliff, out-fishing Carole isn't meant to be. Women are built different than us. They have x-ray vision, built in sonar and mind controlling powers to make even the most skilled angler skunk and the most spooked fish bite.

I guess we know who wears the waders in that family.

Top Angling Carole

I think the term "fast" has many definitions in the fishing industry and each company has their own version of what they define as "fast"

Some companies use the term "fast" to indicate that the rod mainly bends in the tip section when under load (a lot to do with taper design) - The opposite of course would be a slow action where the rod bends right down to the handle. Other companies rate "fast" as as a correlation to a set range of line breaking strength to a certain type of rod (Eg. My Raven IM9 float rod is considered fast with a line rating of 4-10lb yet I can still bend it down to the handle under a moderate load). Other companies (mainly those in the fly fishing industry) denote "fast" as the tip speed recovery rate or how fast the tip recovers back to a stationary position when it is pulled and released (often the number of modules of graphite are used - eg: 65+ million modules of graphite)...Often rod manufacturers have "progressive action blanks" and market them as fast action - Progressive action blanks usually bend further down the blank than fast action rods (sometimes all the way down to the handle), yet the tip speed recovery is fast due to the materials used in the construction.

In my experience, backbone is not always directly correlated to the type of action a blank has. A few of the "slow action" steelhead rods I own have quite a lot of reserve power when you get down to the butt section.