Thanks for the feed back guys. I am not familiar with the big waters. Erie or Ontario is just way to out of my wheel house or interest. the whole down rigger is not my bag. Im looking like an older Peterborough with an outboard right down to a 14 footer. im starting to lean towards a jon boat. I live right by the grand and the only passengers would be me my son and maybe daughter. Or who knows. any suggestions on 12 and fourteen footers with kickers.