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39 minutes ago, Hack_Fisherman said:

  Do you guys think small town Ontario is still hardest hit per capita versus city centers? 

  My wife and I love Road tripping and stopping through a lot of smaller  towns in around southern Ontario. It feels to me like there’s some pretty heavy down and out people whether it’s drug use or not in places such as Owensound Midland Collingwood etc. And eastern Ontario such as   Peterborough And Perth. 

 It almost seems to me like they’re more visible in the small towns that in the cities.  That being said I don’t go into the GTA too often. I’m not sure what the core looks like.

 The reason I’m asking, is because I’m wondering if there’s a correlation with the availability of good work.  If the area is economically depressed, so too are the people?   We often consider moving places when we retire and we’ve crossed off an awful lot of them. Just too rough ( I hope I don’t sound like an uppity dick)

There is definitely a correlation between weakened economics, lack of opportunity and substance abuse. 

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I've done zero research, but I don't think there is a correlation. I think if someone wants to work they will find work. I do think some people have a predisposition and are susceptible to addiction regardless of where they live. 

edit- we posted at the same time, I guess we don't agree on this one bigugli, lol

Edited by chris.brock

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Big problem everywhere. Cutting off the supply of fentanyl would be a start. The west coast has easiest access to it (from China). BC has 3x deaths from overdose compared to Ontario. https://health-infobase.canada.ca/datalab/national-surveillance-opioid-mortality.html

Not every case is from junkies. Regular, upstanding people can get addicted too. Oxys are handed out like candy everywhere it seems, even when you don't ask for them. I went to a walk-in clinic with a sign out front "NO NARCOTICS PRESCRIBED HERE" and asked the doc for 2-3 pills to get me through the next day (after he offered). Then he wrote me a script for 200 pills. what the hell.

Same thing for my wife - 250 pills for a minor toe surgery. 

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Semi-related story: My wife's father unfortunately passed away this year. The doctors gave him some opiate pills for pain near the end, at least 30 of them. After he passed, my wife tried to hand them back to the doc and he told her to keep them. I was livid, but we had bigger things going on. She gave them back to a nurse  a few minutes later who was incredulous that the doc told my wife to keep them. She thanked my wife sincerely for refusing to keep them. Pisses me off to think that they will now manufacture 30 more because these were handed out unnecessarily. Dam industry. 

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I believe there is a correlation when we talk about small towns. Just way to much to discuss though when looking at the big picture.

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22 hours ago, chris.brock said:

I've done zero research, but I don't think there is a correlation. I think if someone wants to work they will find work. I do think some people have a predisposition and are susceptible to addiction regardless of where they live. 

edit- we posted at the same time, I guess we don't agree on this one bigugli, lol

While I would give you the point that there are likely some people predisposed to being susceptible to substance addition, that argument cannot be used to account for the massive increases in substance abuse and deaths that have been seen in middle america and are making their way into Canada. Predisposition would account for a stable or slowly increasing problem, not the explosion that is happening. 

I believe that purpose, or more correctly a lack of purpose, has more to do it than anything else. Since the great depression the standard of living for middle america has steadily increased with each generation. Thanks to an economy put into high gear by a war America pulled itself out of the depression and became a manufacturing powerhouse. Steel mills, the automotive industry, and white goods were strong - you could come out of high school, get a good paying job, buy a house, start a family, and do well. Later generations received more and better education and could become professionals, making their blue-collar parents proud. But then that manufacturing faded out, moved out, and died. You need a university diploma to get a job with a decent salary. A house now costs 8-10 years worth of salary, instead of 2-4. You have massive student debt to pay off before you can even think about that house. This generation in middle america is facing the reality that they may very well end up being worse off than their parents. So they're in the situation where they have no job, crippling debt, no future, and thus feel like life has no purpose. Move to the city? Heck, housing becomes ever more expensive and you will still be fighting for a job. When you feel like you have no purpose and no future it becomes very easy to turn to substances for escape, and it leads down a dark path. You're right - those who really want work will always be busy, but there's also a lot of people who will turn to substances in the meantime.

I believe this also to be a big reason you're seeing the suicide rates among native communities. It's tragic what's happening, but these kids are growing up and don't see a way out. And they feel like they have two options - live their whole life like that or escape from it now. And the government can throw money at the problem all they want, but until they realize that they need to give these kids a reason to live and a future to look ahead to the tragedy will continue. But I digress.

Enforcement is only one part of the solution. You can (and should) crack down on smuggling but as long as the demand and the money are there drugs will be imported. Opiates may be more deadly, but people who want to escape can and will turn to whatever means available, whether that be huffing paint or gas or aerosols or turning to meth. You need to eliminate the demand.

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I would guess the explosion that is happening is because the new drugs are easily available, very powerful and euphoric and highly addictive and this is overriding the fact that they are extremely dangerous, so people are taking them and dying.

I still think that someone who wants to work, have a little house and a family etc will do so despite where they live. They may have to move and it will take some work, but it's attainable for people who strive for that. People predisposed to addiction will get in trouble regardless of where they live or their circumstances in life.

It's impossible to eliminate the demand by making sure everyone has a high standard and quality of life. That sounds like communism. People have to have the initiative to better themselves.

I think the house prices got screwed up with foreign investment and immigration. Every house that sells in my neighborhood the last 3 years is bought by Chinese and the prices are very high. The gov't is good at helping everybody else except Canadians.

My son is 4 years old. The house prices, economy, manufacturing, discrimination against white Canadians all looks crap. What's his future going to hold when he's ready to hit the workforce in 20 years or so? It's messed up.

 

 

  

 

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8 hours ago, chris.brock said:

I would guess the explosion that is happening is because the new drugs are easily available, very powerful and euphoric and highly addictive and this is overriding the fact that they are extremely dangerous, so people are taking them and dying.

I still think that someone who wants to work, have a little house and a family etc will do so despite where they live. They may have to move and it will take some work, but it's attainable for people who strive for that. People predisposed to addiction will get in trouble regardless of where they live or their circumstances in life.

It's impossible to eliminate the demand by making sure everyone has a high standard and quality of life. That sounds like communism. People have to have the initiative to better themselves.

I think the house prices got screwed up with foreign investment and immigration. Every house that sells in my neighborhood the last 3 years is bought by Chinese and the prices are very high. The gov't is good at helping everybody else except Canadians.

My son is 4 years old. The house prices, economy, manufacturing, discrimination against white Canadians all looks crap. What's his future going to hold when he's ready to hit the workforce in 20 years or so? It's messed up.

 

 

  

 

Trust me, I most definitely don't have communist leanings and would put forward that communism is a terrible system that also removes purpose and motivation from people's lives. If the government is going to take care of you just the same whether you're a productive person or a lazy person, what's the point in putting in the extra effort? Might as well do the bare minimum. There's a reason you don't see innovations coming out of communist countries - it's better not to stick your neck out. Equality of outcome is not the solution - it holds back people who could do so much more. Also one of the reasons I oppose UBI. Capitalist systems (despite their flaws) are the system that allows the greatest number of people the ability to have a good life and to further themselves and their children. When asked why he chose to move to America one immigrant stated 'I want to live where the poor people are fat'.

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When I got out of the Navy in 1983 I had 1000.00 in the bank an old van one beanbag chair  and a triumph motorcycle. This is what I started life with and  I went to work in the field I had trained in which is plumbing. With this I then purchased a townhouse and continued my training and putting money aside for the future. By controlling my expenditures meaning no starbucks or eating out and all of the other ways to spend money without getting a material return I amassed enough money to start my own company.  If someone wants something they can achieve it if someone wants the easy way out then they will turn to drugs or other destructive traits. I agree that a few can have a path that can't be avoided either by environment or situations but that is few not the many who are on drugs.  Government programs and bailouts support and enforce the use of drugs. Personally I want drug testing before and program hands out money. This view while unpopular is unpopular because there are enough people abusing the programs who can make enough noise to keep it from changing. I am a darwinian type of person I like the fact the harder and wiser you work the greater the reward. I want the system to be tuned to help those that want to help themselves. If you have massive debt  it is you that spent the money no one else. If you spent it on an education what prevented you from working and saving the money you got from working at the age of 16? If you do take on the debt man up and pay it back ASAP where is the pride that you should have? If you are not college material then don't waste your time and money going to college. There are plenty of other jobs many require hard physical work, long hours, unpleasant environments but they don't cause you to be in debt. The trades are an amazing place o make a living but it is very hard at the beginning and if you do not have the initiative to advance then you will work very hard for not a great reward. Now follow the same path and show you want to advance and  you can one day be very well off. A drug is just an easy way out with thought and planning you can be as great as you work hard to be. I will say that one or two per hundred can follow this and still be an addict simply because there is no such thing as 100% but they are the exception to the rule. 

Art

 

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just to add to my comment about Chinese buying up all the houses around me- yes house prices are being driven higher but they're good neighbors, I live near a college, I remember all the headaches we gave families around my university, the keg parties, the noise, the garbage strewn around, it was a disaster, there's none of that here

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On 7/28/2019 at 10:15 PM, bigugli said:

There is definitely a correlation between weakened economics, lack of opportunity and substance abuse. 

This isn't an opinion it's a fact. A kid see's zero future for him or her,, can't attend school because they don't have clean clothes or even money to buy a lunch to take. See's the local dealer driving fancy new cars and surrounded by women and a crew that seems to respect them. What occupation do you think he will strive for?

Addiction however does not discriminate, there are plenty of people of all walks of life that have addictions. I bought my 1st home 2 years out of High School. I was making a bit above 20K a year and bought a 3 bedroom townhouse in a nice neighbourhood for 25K, only needed cosmetic work. That is unheard of today. My nieces and nephews have done well. They have combined incomes of over 100K a year. 1 bought a home in a working class neighbourhood across from a brownfield site, I wouldn't want to live there. 2 bed 1 bath little saltbox place that they paid $350.000.00. I am sure they have a $300,000.00 mortgage. Not having kids ourselves we helped them all a bit, they need the help now not when we are dead, what if they didn't have help? I know my brother couldn't help them, he is a 59 year old functioning drug addict, his wife as well.  There's a prime example of addiction having no age or income barriers. I had a hard time sleeping and my mortgages were always less than my annual salary, my self imposed rule. Back then your wife's salary didn't count towards your loan qualification. 

Edited by Old Ironmaker

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I'm sure some of the problem also lies with parenting or a complete lack there of.  I'm glad my old man kicked my ass when needed and that was passed onto my boys.   Best thing I ever heard from them, they thought I was a miserable jerk compared to other "fathers".  As they got older,  they now realize the benefits of proper parenting compared to being "friends" and have told me that.  Both are doing well and have a gorilla grip on life.

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4 minutes ago, Fisherman said:

I'm sure some of the problem also lies with parenting or a complete lack there of.  I'm glad my old man kicked my ass when needed and that was passed onto my boys.   Best thing I ever heard from them, they thought I was a miserable jerk compared to other "fathers".  As they got older,  they now realize the benefits of proper parenting compared to being "friends" and have told me that.  Both are doing well and have a gorilla grip on life.

My brother and I were raised in the same house by the same parents. He is a 59 year old drug addict, his wife as well. He was making 6 digits in the early 90's, she was a medical research scientist making big bucks for a Big Pharma firm up to 20 years ago. They are both on disability having a tough time to make their geared to income rent. I don't believe proper parenting is the simple answer, there is no simple answer but good parenting is sure better than the alternative. 

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I dont think addiction rates have increased, its the drugs themselves that are causing the mass rate of people dying. In the 70's  fentynal or crystal meth werent popular choices for addicts. These highly synthetic compounds are basically a time bomb waiting to kill people.

Tom you make some great points about my generation actually having somewhat of a tough go. Society is changing drastically, its taking people a lot longer to have "settling down and starting a family" as an option at all. Most folks cant even fathom the idea until they are 30 years old because of school debt and the need for a decent job.

Pluma, you kind of make the point. Yes you worked hard and made it work. You probably just decided to be a plumber, were able to get a quality job, work hard and make ends meet. 

In todays reality, this just doesnt happen. Theres no such thing as just deciding to be this or that. You either have to go to school first, or have a great connection. Theres no good paying trades jobs that are "just available for the taking" anymore. Thats the biggest difference between back in the day and now.

small towns have always had issues, maybe they just werent at the forefront. I think there were just more "drunks" back in the day, rather than people tweeking on crystal meth. How many stories do you hear about guys with dads that beat their moms up and crap when they got drunk. Its no different then than it is now. Just different substances people are using.

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12 minutes ago, AKRISONER said:

I dont think addiction rates have increased, its the drugs themselves that are causing the mass rate of people dying. In the 70's  fentynal or crystal meth werent popular choices for addicts. These highly synthetic compounds are basically a time bomb waiting to kill people.

Tom you make some great points about my generation actually having somewhat of a tough go. Society is changing drastically, its taking people a lot longer to have "settling down and starting a family" as an option at all. Most folks cant even fathom the idea until they are 30 years old because of school debt and the need for a decent job.

Pluma, you kind of make the point. Yes you worked hard and made it work. You probably just decided to be a plumber, were able to get a quality job, work hard and make ends meet. 

In todays reality, this just doesnt happen. Theres no such thing as just deciding to be this or that. You either have to go to school first, or have a great connection. Theres no good paying trades jobs that are "just available for the taking" anymore. Thats the biggest difference between back in the day and now.

small towns have always had issues, maybe they just werent at the forefront. I think there were just more "drunks" back in the day, rather than people tweeking on crystal meth. How many stories do you hear about guys with dads that beat their moms up and crap when they got drunk. Its no different then than it is now. Just different substances people are using.

I went to High School in the late 60's and erly 70's, graduated grade 13 in 72'. There were drugs then, plenty of them and there were drug heads, plenty of them. I don't even know if Fentynol was even invented then. It was Acid, Speed (is that meth?) Hash and Hash oil and bags full of weed. Guys that weren't even students sold it where the smoking area was, all day everyday.

I always say my friends and I were born in the right decade Akri. You could go down Industrial Drive in  Hamilton, walk into the main office of any plant, apply for a job and get 1. They lasted for 30 to 40 years with benefits and a full pension. There was no such thing as a resume, if you could prove you were 18 and had all your appendages you were hired. Some guys couldn't fill out the application. I actuallt have a old friend that has 45 years of service and still working at 65, he has a young persons job that needs it not him. He complains his 31 year old son living at home can't get a job, I tell him "BECAUSE YOU HAVE HIS JOB STUPID." Besides that his kid is as sharp as a stump and is lazy plus Mummy feeds him, makes his bed and washes and folds his clothes nice, nice. Maybe he isn't so stupid after all.

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^^^^ pretty much the same deal here OI, graduated 13 in '69 and spent the next 5 years at U of T, smoked my first joint that fall at university and drugs were easy to get, Roachdale College was going and always could score at the Zumburger across University Ave and Yorkville was still coffee shops, folk music and hippies back then, not upscale yuppie shops.  It was all weed, hash and LSD pretty well though , recreational stuff. Ended up working in a steel mill still as the gov't contract jobs never materialized into fulltime and finally said screw it, walked in , applied and started my 30 years and got out at 58, 11 years ago and still partake of the herb fifty years later ?.

 

Edited by dave524

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On 7/28/2019 at 9:33 PM, Hack_Fisherman said:

   The reason I’m asking, is because I’m wondering if there’s a correlation with the availability of good work.  If the area is economically depressed, so too are the people?   

I work in Stratford, Ont. where the unemployment rate is one of the lowest in Canada. 

Many places looking for help. 

They still have a serious drug problem there.

I agree that social/economic issues do play a role in the drug problem but it's not limited to economic depressed towns & cities.

 

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2 hours ago, Old Ironmaker said:

" Besides that his kid is as sharp as a stump and is lazy plus Mummy feeds him, makes his bed and washes and folds his clothes nice, nice. Maybe he isn't so stupid after all.

See, there's that parent problem. 

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2 hours ago, AKRISONER said:

I

Pluma, you kind of make the point. Yes you worked hard and made it work. You probably just decided to be a plumber, were able to get a quality job, work hard and make ends meet. 

In todays reality, this just doesnt happen. Theres no such thing as just deciding to be this or that. You either have to go to school first, or have a great connection. Theres no good paying trades jobs that are "just available for the taking" anymore. Thats the biggest difference between back in the day and now.

 

The need for tradesman are still there but the jobs are not for the taking but are for the earning.  I hired 3 new helpers 2 under 20 1 over 30 guess which two quit in the first month  because the work was to hard and dirty. Don't applaud the 30 year old he  only lasted 4 months.  My first 2 years were spent in a ditch running sewer and water lines. If I had decided to stop because the work was hard and dirty then I would not have advanced.  I knew to get ahead of the others I would have to be more valuable than the other mechanics. I went to trade school as well as college to show management that I wanted to be a leader, that I wanted to get ahead.  This took commitment and  to prevent myself from getting into debt I worked overtime and at a hobby shop. It has to do with being proud of what you can do ,it has to do with showing others your self worth. See as an employer I need to invest 40,000.00 a year in wages and benefits to train someone how to be a plumber.  If you are not impressing me with your work ethics and showing a desire to advance I will cut you loose quickly. What I am offering that person is a career that can earn in time 80-100 thousand dollars a year in wages and benefits as an employee. With people being short sighted and wanting things easy it just is not a good mix.  If you want to get ahead in life you have to make sacrifices and bid your time  none of it is easy but if you stay the path and resist the easy path of drugs or alcohol then you will be able to prosper.  "The only person who owes you something is yourself" with an attitude like that you can get ahead of life and reap the rewards it brings. 

Art

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Back in the 60's and 70's anyone with a Bachelor of Arts got going up the ladder and the$$$. Their kids look at their parents and think it isn't fair for BAs to be where they got too when the kids have MAs and PHDs and have to flip burgers now to try and pay CRAZY student debts off and are also aware they have to pay the foreign debt the old people's gov't has amassed and which is still growing almost to the point interest can't be paid on it.

So the kids don't care and are bitter and stay at home where mommy feeds and clothes and shelters ems. I read several years ago that 34 was average age of a kid leaving home. 

Oh and folks from other countries that never paid much tax/licence fees arrive with 'questionable' certificates and compete for houses with our young. Our young have been paying taxes and their competition have been amassing wealth. Guess who gets the house? 

I don't blame our young for being a bit bitter. Drugs are an easy path for the weak to take. Many of our young are weak. They are also missing the sense of identity that happened before. now its all Facebook/tech toys everyone must have/mandatory car insurance and other 'new' expenses all need to be cool like internet.

I once witnessed a 'nurse' selling a bottle full of pills from the hospital the nurse worked at. The nurse that got given a bunch of morphine may have made $1,000. Tempting and Drs and Big Pharma like making $ pushing pills which is why in the US a major charge was laid against a big pharma where it was paying Drs to push its product which was addictive.

 

 

Edited by cisco

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4 hours ago, dave524 said:

^^^^ pretty much the same deal here OI, graduated 13 in '69 and spent the next 5 years at U of T, smoked my first joint that fall at university and drugs were easy to get, Roachdale College was going and always could score at the Zumburger across University Ave and Yorkville was still coffee shops, folk music and hippies back then, not upscale yuppie shops.  It was all weed, hash and LSD pretty well though , recreational stuff. Ended up working in a steel mill still as the gov't contract jobs never materialized into fulltime and finally said screw it, walked in , applied and started my 30 years and got out at 58, 11 years ago and still partake of the herb fifty years later ?.

 

5 years to get a 3 year degree Dave? Roachdale! That was the school where the courses taken prepared a young person to deal narcotics. There is a CBC special out there trying to explain what went on in that place. I visited once before I went to Ohio for school. The 1st ting that struck me were all the neket people walking around for the sake of Art. It was grade 13 that I smoked my 1st spliff. It was that day I knew I didn't like the stuff. My new young Dr. gave me my marijuana script. I bought some candy's from them. They were supposed to be very low in THC and high in the other stuff CB something. Supposed to suck on them for 5 minutes. It didn't do anything so I sucked on them for 30 mins, still no pain relief so I chewed the whole thing. Had my second bad trip in my life at 64 years old. They have more THC than advertised.  Gave the crap away. Based on my experience the entire Medical MJ thing is a scam. Everyone in the waiting room were stoners if you ask me. The 1st thing they wanted was my VISA card number. I did 1 semester at Youngstown State, my major was offensive backfield. Went to the plant in December for a year until school started. It wasn't a full hop scholarship. I wasn't alone. 30 years latter I'm still trying to save up some money for school and many of us retired at the same time. l. It's funny, one of the first things I did after taking my pension was to enroll in Brock. I was 46 and wasn't the youngest person in class. One of the prof's asked me, "Johnny D are you here to learn or teach?"

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16 minutes ago, Old Ironmaker said:

5 years to get a 3 year degree Dave?

Actually I completed the first 3 years of a Forestry Degree,  moved to Landscape Architecture for a year, they let me start at 2nd year there but it was not my cup of tea so I completed the 4th year of my B.Sc. F. so yes 5 years but it was a 4 year Applied Science Degree.  Then I worked in a steel mill ? 

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4 hours ago, dave524 said:

Actually I completed the first 3 years of a Forestry Degree,  moved to Landscape Architecture for a year, they let me start at 2nd year there but it was not my cup of tea so I completed the 4th year of my B.Sc. F. so yes 5 years but it was a 4 year Applied Science Degree.  Then I worked in a steel mill ? 

Dave you don't need to explain anything to this guy. I was busting your Steel Mill balls. We actually had a young engineer back in 90' that had his degree in Forestry training as a supervisor in the Ironmaking division. I called him Bigfoot, 6'5" and a size 15 shoe. I had to special order his work boots, so Bigfoot it was. Even though conditions could be horrendous at times he said it was better than planting thousands of little trees in northern Manitoba hoping they grew into big trees where the air was thick with all species of man eating bugs. Plus his training rate was double that of his Forestry Managers. The boys had gone out for a few Ales one evening. I wouldn't let him drive so I gave him the guest room. I found him in the AM sleeping on my deck. He didn't feel comfortable with a real roof over his head as he slept under the stars for the past 3 seasons. I knew some real characters in that place.

Edited by Old Ironmaker

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7 hours ago, cisco said:

Back in the 60's and 70's anyone with a Bachelor of Arts got going up the ladder and the$$$. Their kids look at their parents and think it isn't fair for BAs to be where they got too when the kids have MAs and PHDs and have to flip burgers now to try and pay CRAZY student debts off 

 

 

A B.A. degree from the 70's ?. How about the parent coming to Canada in the late 60's from Europe with the equivalent of grade 10 here? His pension is almost what his daughters bank salary is and she  has her M.B.A. 

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15 hours ago, aplumma said:

The need for tradesman are still there but the jobs are not for the taking but are for the earning.  I hired 3 new helpers 2 under 20 1 over 30 guess which two quit in the first month  because the work was to hard and dirty. Don't applaud the 30 year old he  only lasted 4 months.  

Art,

It sounds like you are a victim of our broken education system. I dont know if things have changed in the last 12 years, but the cold hard facts are that when I was in highschool, there were two clear paths 1. Getting good grades that would be high enough for you to apply to programs in university or college.

There was a clear set of pre-requisit high school credits and a minimum grade % required in order to apply to programs.

 

And shockingly, Path 2 was...you guessed it, the trades. What this meant was that the trades were the only option available for students who couldnt maintain a high enough average in school to be able to apply to college or university. What this meant was that the people that spent their time in highschool doing drugs, skipping class and flunking out were pushed towards the trades, while the intelligent hard working kids were told to go and try and get a meaningless degree. Even more incredible is that you had a  very large group of kids who maybe didnt have the math brain to hold up an A average and get an engineering degree, so their average wasnt as "Pretty" The kids still worked hard, did all of their work and even had A's in a lot of their classes, they just struggled in math or one of the sciences. Because they didnt have an A average they were then guided into taking useless degrees that basically result in a student not getting a job. English and history degrees were most common.

Meanwhile Johnny who spends his entire days dealing weed down at the smoke pit doesnt give a damn because he can always get an apprenticeship from his uncle in the union as a plumber.

Myself and my girlfriend and two of my good friends may be the perfect example of the bogus education system we have. My girlfriend carried a high B average all of the way through highschool and had A's in all of english and writing related courses. She went to school for english and got a degree with a pretty high grade point average, she even won some awards for some papers she wrote in university. Upon completion, she had her English major, and proceeded to work at a publishing company for slightly over minimum wage packing boxes with books. (she eventually got a job in group insurance and is doing ok now, but will never make a tradesmens wage)

I finished highschool with a B+ average, i wouild have had honour roll but i just really disliked math and hence, my one bad C grade resulted in me not getting honour roll. 17 years old at the time I thought I wanted to be a graphic designer, I applied, got special admittance to the top graphic design program in ontario at the time at humber college. Had honours through college, worked my ass off every summer and got given a special job with the city due to the responsibility i took on and hard labour i did, i got to work by myself and run the maintenence operations at the cemetery in town. I got out of college during the economic downturn, every ad agency in the city was doing mass lay offs because the first thing that goes during a downturn is advertising. I ended up scrambling for any job I could get, started moving hot tubs for a living 6 days a week.

Finally I got a break makign barely over minimum wage, commuted two hours each way every day to a horrible job doing inside sales with a bit of graphics on the side. I was hurting bad...fluked out got an interview with the company that I am at to this day and the rest is history. I make ok money but will never make a journeymans wage.

My two friends, one who I was in grade school with since grade 2 has a reading learning disability, is ESL and nearly failed school his entire life. He is now journeyman electrician after taking the test and failing until he passed (5 times...it may have been 4) He at least knows how to work hard labour, even though his "critical thinking, reading comprehension and math skills are severly lacking.

My other very good friend, spent his highschool days in a hardcore band, smoked weed and skipped school every day. Partied every weekend all weekend, had a couple of part time jobs in highschool that he got fired from. Out of highschool he started working seasonal work. Would then go on unemployment over the winter and would sit at his parents house over the winter smoking weed and watching tv. His uncle, a union plumber said hed get him in with the union. Hes now a final year apprentice and makes more money than me. Still doesnt really like working that much but does it to pay the bills.

Now you tell me, does the system make sense? Or is something fundamentally very very wrong.

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