GM CLOSING IN OSHAWA -----N F

[AKRISONER]

I 100% feel for the families that rely on these good paying jobs.

We cant compete with the mexican job economy, we have to find new ways to make our businesses economically viable. 

I dont know a single person my age that has gone out recently and bought a chev...Their trucks are expensive and their cars are not appealing to people under 50 years of age.

bad situation for a 3000 folks though...Blaming Trudeau for 2 decades of poor sales performance and a lack of innovation is a bit of a stretch even if you dont like the guy. Ill back off on that one though because its political.

Edited November 26, 2018 by AKRISONER

[bigugli]

The writing on the wall, was there 10 years ago. I expect the St Kitts plant to be gone within 5

[Fisherman]

17 minutes ago, AKRISONER said:

..Their trucks are expensive and their cars are not appealing to people under 50 years of age.

 

Was at the dealer this morning,  top line trucks listed for over $80K, what the hell are they smoking.  I doubt I'll ever buy new again.

[captpierre]

Look at the cars on the road. Way less  than half are domestics. None of them are rated well,   maybe Impala  and pick ups.   The Japanese make the most reliable  vehicles. The Germans concentrate on looks and performance. Mainly higher end.   The Koreans make good cars for less.  Domestics are neither good or cheap.  Their sales have been in decline for years. 

GM closed more plants in the US. Not just a Canadian problem.  Sad.

Reminds me of outbounds.  I don’t remember Yamaha outboards 40 yrs ago. Now they are number 1.   

 

 

 

[Dozer]

1 hour ago, Fisherman said:

Was at the dealer this morning,  top line trucks listed for over $80K, what the hell are they smoking.  I doubt I'll ever buy new again.

For that money you can get quite the Toyota

[chris.brock]

6 hours ago, Garnet said:

In the 2009 financial melt gov lent GM 25 billion for guaranteed product to 2018.

GM paid back 25B a year early. And hello it's 2018.

 

 

that's not the numbers I found

$13.7 Billion to GM and Chrysler together, $3.5 B was never paid back and was written off

GM had to maintain at least 20% of it's N American operations in Canada.

[misfish]

They say the CAMY plant is not going anywhere.

 

Also don't just look at Mexico. Alabama has been building up plants .I have heard it called the land of  AUTO OZ.

https://mexico-now.com/index.php/magazinearticles/3962-mexico-s-auto-industry-outlook-2018-2024

 

https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-04-03/how-alabama-becoming-auto-capital-south

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by misfish

[DRIFTER_016]

1 hour ago, Dozer said:

For that money you can get quite the Toyota

The one I want is only $60K or so.  ?

Will be purchasing a new PU in late 2021 or early 2022 so it's all paid off when I retire in early 2027. 

[SirCranksalot]

2 hours ago, Fisherman said:

Was at the dealer this morning,  top line trucks listed for over $80K, what the hell are they smoking.  I doubt I'll ever buy new again.

I predict the prices will drop because so many people are ticked off and refuse to buy. 10 billion load(some written off) from the taxpayers and this is the thanks we get They can go a lot further than Mexico. They can go straight to hell!!

 

[DRIFTER_016]

Some good news on the job front.

Not exactly the Shwa but it's in the province at least.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/london-lands-660-million-plant-that-will-bring-1500-jobs?fbclid=IwAR1fSSaA63ZqMwuu5mNZFa4xxN1arSZLbYFG2xf069Jck01hW-V4hiknXJo

[Fisherman]

27 minutes ago, SirCranksalot said:

I predict the prices will drop because so many people are ticked off and refuse to buy. 10 billion load(some written off) from the taxpayers and this is the thanks we get They can go a lot further than Mexico. They can go straight to hell!!

 

Agree,  I think we're all getting tired of the corporate welfare.  If Mom and Pops pizza is failing all they get is "you should have tried harder". Tired of having unions tell me what I have to do to keep their jobs alive.

[chris.brock]

just some points

 

- it's a capitalist system, GM can do whatever they want, it's the promises they broke to get a bail out that isn't cool

- GM has been profitable for years, netting billions after getting a grant from the Ontario tax payers pockets for billions

-the NA auto workers wage represents about 6% of a vehicle sticker price

-GM uses the excuse they want to concentrate on self driving and electric cars, that makes no sense, I guess Mexicans are better at assembling electric cars, lol

-the Canadian union for GM Oshawa says the closing will result in a loss of 1 billion in yearly tax dollars collected, prov. and fed combined

 

I have a 3 year old son. I'm worried what the job market will look like when he is ready to hit the work force. I want him to strive a lot higher than an auto worker, but the erosion of the middle class is disturbing. 

 

 

 

 

[Tom S]

1 hour ago, chris.brock said:

I have a 3 year old son. I'm worried what the job market will look like when he is ready to hit the work force. I want him to strive a lot higher than an auto worker, but the erosion of the middle class is disturbing. 

I worry about the same thing. Never discount the trades, someone willing to get their hands dirty and take some pride in their work will always be busy. 

So many thoughts bouncing around my head about GM shutting down. So many factors leading up to this closure. 

-Cost of living and debt levels have risen faster than wages, causing a push for higher wages. Used to be able to buy a house working a job with just a high school education, not so much these days. But at the same time we're responsible for the rising cost of living as our culture of consumerism constantly raises our living standards as we want more stuff and are encouraged to borrow more and more.

-Between the drive clean program and the 0% financing that was available during the economic crisis more people are driving new cars than ever. Leading to a slump in sales, since most people who were looking to replace a car have responded to incentives. Probably saw growth through the early millennium, with a plateau shortly after the recession. They managed to keep the plants running, but it's hurting them now. 

-I feel that the manufacturers and the dealerships don't have the same goals in mind. Things such as selling cars at below purchase price in order to meet sales targets, so that the dealership receives the bonuses required in order be profitable. (Excellent podcast for any interested in dealership shenanigans -> https://www.thisamericanlife.org/513/129-cars .

-Cars are so complex and technologically advanced these days that prices become astronomical. Once again we're the source of our own problem, as consumers want gadgets and gizmos; and the environmental regulations require complicated control systems. Not saying that environmental regulations are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but can be taken past the point of common sense. I think that we're going to see a lot of cars scapped in the future because of electronics issues, costs a lot to buy the auto upfront and costs a lot to troubleshoot and repair the computerized modules when they break down.  

[Moosebunk]

Nothing to add. Just wanted to say tho, for a bunch of fishbums yer all making some smart comments. Good thread to follow...  Watched the news today, that Riaz, Rios whatever guy going on about how GM's in for a fight, then some Union Reps getting riled up... Just kinda thought to myself, it does suck for the workers, families and even Province too, but the dark clouds have been coming for some time, so I hope folks were wise to prepare for it as much as much as possible.

[LeXXington]

There is a business case for the closing.  You just can't compete in Canada in manufacturing. 

Tossing more money after bad is not going to help.

GM can close the plant as they said.. but I think they still own Canada a bit

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/loans-canada-account-finance-auto-sector-bailout-2009-gm-chrysler-1.4722529

Don't let them take one piece of hardware to move it to Mexico until they paid back our Money.

As for the loss of jobs.  I have known a number of companies getting rid of employee's and not a word from government but when its the auto sector its different?

Ask someone in Alberta how the Feds are helping them https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/100000-jobless-energy-workers-struggle-for-a-place-in-the-new-economy

Job losses are going to be the new norm for a few years to come until Canada starts acting like a country and standing up for the middle class. 

This is not a USA / Mexico / Canada / China  issue.  It's we just need fair policy and environment to compete. 

This weird notion that the high tech sector will save us all ended in 2001 when they figured off-shoring was cheaper than workers in Canada.

Until our leaders realize that you can only hire so many new government workers before you run out of money expect more of the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OhioFisherman]

8 hours ago, grimsbylander said:

That's the easy question with the very difficult answer. It used to be that N/A had the technological and intellectual advantage over offshore competitors; with the exception of western/central Europe of course. Now that have leveled and mainly due to the investment made by N/A businesses. They fed information and money into those countries in order to gain advantage in home markets at the expense of manufacturing. Once that happens you can't un-ring the bell. 

My youngest daughter went to Ohio State University in Columbus Ohio and graduated about 4 years ago. Since I am severely disabled I couldn't attend the ceremony, but did watch it live streamed on line, that was an eye opener!

OSU is the largest, or at least one of the top 5 largest, colleges in our country and it seemed like most of the students graduating with PHD degrees were foreign, and their degrees seemed to be in fields that actually meant something. No intent to demean any educational attempt intended, but the subject matter was revealing.

[OhioFisherman]

56 minutes ago, Tom S said:

I worry about the same thing. Never discount the trades, someone willing to get their hands dirty and take some pride in their work will always be busy. 

So many thoughts bouncing around my head about GM shutting down. So many factors leading up to this closure. 

-Cost of living and debt levels have risen faster than wages, causing a push for higher wages. Used to be able to buy a house working a job with just a high school education, not so much these days. But at the same time we're responsible for the rising cost of living as our culture of consumerism constantly raises our living standards as we want more stuff and are encouraged to borrow more and more.

-Between the drive clean program and the 0% financing that was available during the economic crisis more people are driving new cars than ever. Leading to a slump in sales, since most people who were looking to replace a car have responded to incentives. Probably saw growth through the early millennium, with a plateau shortly after the recession. They managed to keep the plants running, but it's hurting them now. 

-I feel that the manufacturers and the dealerships don't have the same goals in mind. Things such as selling cars at below purchase price in order to meet sales targets, so that the dealership receives the bonuses required in order be profitable. (Excellent podcast for any interested in dealership shenanigans -> https://www.thisamericanlife.org/513/129-cars .

-Cars are so complex and technologically advanced these days that prices become astronomical. Once again we're the source of our own problem, as consumers want gadgets and gizmos; and the environmental regulations require complicated control systems. Not saying that environmental regulations are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but can be taken past the point of common sense. I think that we're going to see a lot of cars scapped in the future because of electronics issues, costs a lot to buy the auto upfront and costs a lot to troubleshoot and repair the computerized modules when they break down.  

As long as one country on this planet allows wages for the same job that are significantly lower than others there will be a rush to  exploit that advantage? Even if all our workers had college educations the push would still be there to maximize profits seeking cheaper help elsewhere?

[dave524]

The big factor that no one is mentioning in the loss of manufacturing is the high price of electric power today , historically cheap power starting with the development of Niagara Falls was the drawing card here. I worked on an environmental assessment of the Nanticoke site before the power plant was built many years ago, watched as Stelco and others were drawn there for the power, that era is over.  

Edited November 27, 2018 by dave524

[DanD]

My son is an engineer working for GM at the technical center in Warren Michigan. He was sent to the truck assembly plant in Texas; to find out why some of these trucks had a server engine vibration. What he found was that some of the frames were not parallel to each other; causing the engine mounts to be stretched or crushed to their limits. After some investigating he also found that all the frames that came out of St Thomas Ontario were perfect. The bad frames were all made in Mexico. So you ask my son what he thinks of out sourcing, to save a few bucks. He spent a few weeks down there to come up with wedge shims to be placed between the frame perches and mounts to center the engines. When he got back he asked Chevrolet's lead engineer if the bean counters were going to be held accountable; rather then his engineering department. All he got from his boss was shrugged shoulders.  

Dan.

[grimsbylander]

3 hours ago, dave524 said:

The big factor that no one is mentioning in the loss of manufacturing is the high price of electric power today , historically cheap power starting with the development of Niagara Falls was the drawing card here. I worked on an environmental assessment of the Nanticoke site before the power plant was built many years ago, watched as Stelco and others were drawn there for the power, that era is over.  

I can see why Stelco would move closer to Nanticoke back in the day when companies were not thinking global. It's not the case today though and the cost of power in the pacific rim is on par or even higher than in N. America. The attraction to offshore manufacturing is material prices and labour which is allowing them the economic luxury of developing robust supply chains.

[Old Ironmaker]

I'm not surprised at all. We went through this 15 years ago at Stelco. GM simply isn't going to sell anymore Impalas, Caddy SUV's and big 1/2 tons that Oshawa makes. Self driving and electrical/hybrids is the way of the future, and that is what GM said about the closing. It's not 2000 job losses, it's more like 20,000 plus ancillary jobs. 

[Rattletrap2]

17 hours ago, DRIFTER_016 said:

Some good news on the job front.

Not exactly the Shwa but it's in the province at least.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/london-lands-660-million-plant-that-will-bring-1500-jobs?fbclid=IwAR1fSSaA63ZqMwuu5mNZFa4xxN1arSZLbYFG2xf069Jck01hW-V4hiknXJo

Yes, but they are closing down other Ontario plants. The total number of people employed by Maple Leaf is going down!

[Whitespinnerbait]

Finally , someone has put an end to $60 an hour to install windshield wiper blades or to screw on a tail light etc etc. 

[misfish]

We stamp and fine blank millions of parts a year for the auto sector. We ship pretty much world wide, including Canada. We are presently expanding both plants. We do the parts that other companies do not want to do. The difficult parts.

[dave524]

1 hour ago, Whitespinnerbait said:

Finally , someone has put an end to $60 an hour to install windshield wiper blades or to screw on a tail light etc etc. 

where is this shop that only charges $60 a hour for labour ?