jedimaster Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 i think the mear fact that there is a collective bargaining agreement means there is collective bargaining. If you want it so the Player's have no and aren't part of the collective bargaining process, then you need to bancrupt the NHL, and start over, have open tryouts and hire players as staff. Of course, then you have to determine does the NHL as a whole employ the players or do the teams? If its the NHL then the league would determine who is in and then there could be a draft for every team. If its the teams then unless there is some sort of agreement between all of the franchises then you would need to have some sort of agreement on what sort of caps they want to impose on salary etc... now of course when you have that many players and that much money involved there will eventually be a union formed between players in of all the teams. Then there will need to be a collective agreement and terms so that every player is treated the same between teams. Then of course there are going to be poor teams that won't be able to compete with salaray so you will need to have some sort of max or minimum, perhaps a profit sharing or luxury tax between rich and poor teams. Or I guess you could just scrap the 10 crappy teams. There is no way to run a league the size of a pro sports league without some sort of collective agreement in place. Labour laws etc... all dictate that. It's just how the beast is. You want the best players, every team wants an edge to win, they WILL pay as much as they need to to try and get the best players. You need to keep it under control so you need contracts etc... As it is right now. The league bargains with the players associate to come up with a CBA. Thats just how it works or breaks. Like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhousesoccer Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Weve created these monsters....no one but ourselves to blame. Theres a bit of a disconnect from reality when you see this kinda stuff: Heres his summer home: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMdEDt-B3O0 Totally "unfair" for a 17 goal scorer last year and 10 the year before. My first reaction is just disgust. These guys are arguing over money?!?! A video like this definitely does NOT make me want to pull for the players, and I don't want to pull for the owners either, so I guess I'm just essentially done with all the rich boys of the NHL - both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenCanada Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Posturing and lies. x2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickingfrog Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 My first reaction is just disgust. These guys are arguing over money?!?! A video like this definitely does NOT make me want to pull for the players, and I don't want to pull for the owners either, so I guess I'm just essentially done with all the rich boys of the NHL - both sides. You'd go apoplectic if you saw what the owners have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickingfrog Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 No risk play hockey. No talent needed. Players are the sole reason fans buy tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimaster Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 No risk play hockey. No talent needed. Players are the sole reason fans buy tickets. x2 NHL players take risks every time they lace up the skates, ask all the guys with concussions. People WANT to pay to see the BEST. Thats why they get paid so much. It has nothing to do with who the owner is. You could swap out all of the billionaire owners for millionaire owners, or groups of pension fund owners and people would still pay to see the BEST play hockey. Swap out the BEST players in the world for second rate players and people won't pay nearly as much... That what the AHL is. People aren't paying 500 dollars a ticket to see the AHL. Same reason why the CFL is not so popular. Some may like second rate talent, but the majority want to see the very best. CFL versus NFL Olympics versus Panama Games MLB versus AAA NHL vrs AHL NBA versus D league People want to pay the big bucks to see the best talent. The little baby league's will have there strong supporter's and good for them, but why begrudge The Best of Best, when any single one playing in the little leagues would sell there soul to the devil to be in the big leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickingfrog Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Another argument (not necessarily brought up here) is that ticket prices are based on player costs. Gary said as much last time he locked-out the players. Ticket prices are not related to player costs. Never have been, never will be. Ticket prices are based on what the market will bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 For the players it is there life. What is it for the owners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzo Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 The fact remains - those who have the money can decide how they spend it. Those who receive the money can accept or refuse an offer of employment. And right now, the players are refusing. couldn't agree more. If someone offered me a couple of million to do something I enjoy I would jump at the opportunity. Who cares about the terms of the deal? You're getting millions of dollars! These guys make more in a year than most of us make in a lifetime. The owners took the risk of making a MAJOR investment. They should be allowed to make as much as they can, as long as they treat their employees fairly. I'd say millions is pretty fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) What is a reasonable amount for an owner to make? Is there a number (percent) that big business goes by? And thanks for all the info on here. I am learning a lot. Edited December 7, 2012 by glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzo Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 ...or what is a reasonable amount for an owner to lose. I think this is the real debate, not all these guys make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimaster Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 All of the major leagues have had lockouts and strikes. NFL, MLB, NBA etc... This is a lockout, no different than the others. The owners make an offer and say its there best and want to negotiate The players counter that offer The owners reject it without reviewing it, they want a yes or no The players wait for a new offer The players counter The owners reject it without reviewing it, they want a yes or no The players wait for a new offer Evenutally the Owners will have to actually start negotiating or they will need to cave and make an offer that the players will accept. Either way that will take a long time, because the owners show no sign of wanting to negotiate a deal, and the players are going to keep waiting for a good offer. I mean its not like the owners are actually willing to negotiate for real. If they were then this would have been signed sealed and delivered long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickingfrog Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Of course there is risk playing hockey - there is physical risk. And of course there is talent, I never said there wasn't. The CBA is about finances. The Owners assume all the financial risk of operating the league. Players in Phoenix, Carolina, Columbus, Florida, Dallas etc. get paid regardless of how much money their team brings in (or doesn't bring in). This is a difference of philosophy that won't be bridged between us on the internet...and it's increasingly apparent that the owners and players are the same. And the owners are the sole reason the players have arenas to play in, coaching staff, scouting staff, private chartered air craft, doctors, trainers..... Financial risk? Just this week the billionaire owner of the wings waddled up to the government trough (citizens tax money) for a new arena. He is only the most recent in a long list of owners that have done the same. Katz in Edmonton is another fine example of the financial risk the owners are willing to bear. The money used to provide all of that luxury all generated on the backs of the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickingfrog Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 ...or what is a reasonable amount for an owner to lose. I think this is the real debate, not all these guys make money. If we were to believe that fallacy why would they ever buy a team? Who twisted their arms? Why would these "educated" men buy into a model that loses money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerritt Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 If we were to believe that fallacy why would they ever buy a team? Who twisted their arms? Why would these "educated" men buy into a model that loses money? Simple.... Write-Offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickingfrog Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert in high finances of big business but here is an example of how the money numbers can work for some pro sports teams. Team owner (many are not individuals anymore but it keeps the typing easy) also owns the arena his team plays in and a parking lot next to the building. The arena charges the team a rental fee to use the building, not only on game nights but practices as well. The arena charges rent to the team for coach and management office space. The parking lot profits all go to owner and are not reflected in the team's revenue even though the fees are double on game nights. The owner takes in profits and a salary that he pays himself. And don't forget the salary counts against team's P and L statement. The owner says "My team barely broke even last season". Better yet, "we lost x amount of money" 'cause that's a wright-off. That is over simplified but that is the way it goes, and not just in sports. Edited December 7, 2012 by kickingfrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Court R Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/embed/GhnvKzA-6WY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerritt Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 They were not Billionaires because they owned a franchise... they were Billionaires BEFORE they bought the team.... If a team is losing money... it can actually be GOOD for the owner if that business loses money, while his other business thrive... Lower taxes paid to the Tax man. And you can bet, several companies are set up, one for ticket revenue, one for concessions, one for parking etc etc etc... So if one loses, it equals PROFIT! Again less tax to the tax man. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzo Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Why would these "educated" men buy into a model that loses money? ...arrogance...they think they can succeed where the last guy didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickingfrog Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Another thing to keep in mind is that virtually all the sports media guys and gals covering this lock-out will face cut-backs if this continues. Of course they also stand to keep their jobs if the season starts, no matter what the players make. The NHL and the PA are not the only ones spinning here is what I'm getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmer Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 The whole process is very tiring and past the point of being interesting. Bettman trying to save the owners from themselves, players wanting the owners to throw bags of money at them. None willing to move an inch either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 My buddy Dion keeps phoning me every other day or so about this and asks for my advice. I just tell him to relax Dude. It will all work out in the end. Now he's changing the subject and asking me to be his best man at his wedding. I don't know what to do?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishfield Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) My buddy Dion keeps phoning me every other day or so about this and asks for my advice. I just tell him to relax Dude. It will all work out in the end. Now he's changing the subject and asking me to be his best man at his wedding. I don't know what to do?? I just hope that nobody buys a ticket for the 2013/2014 season... to show them what everyone thinks. Like when the baseball lads went on strike. They use to fill the dome.. now you can get tickets for a dollar just to cover the liability waver on the tickets! Edited December 8, 2012 by irishfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I just hope that nobody buys a ticket for the 2013/2014 season... to show them what everyone thinks. Like when the baseball lads went on strike. They use to fill the dome.. now you can get tickets for a dollar just to cover the liability waver on the tickets! Seriously, I hope so too Wayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillj Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) Oh .. and by the way ... tickets are only $15 to come and watch me play FOR the Toronto Maple Leafs Alumni team ... January 28th at the Powerade Centre in Brampton ... unless of course we get 'locked out' ... I mean ... after all ... I only paid $2600 for the priviledge of playing with them (if you dont include the cost of the NEOVISC and cortisone shots ) BTW Wayne ... I got one reserved for You and Jenn if she's interested Edited December 9, 2012 by camillj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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