Fenelon Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Grimsby: I understand the Ontario fishing regs and regularly keep some of my catch for the table. Never had a problem with fishermen keeping their fish. You obviously are missing the multitude of issues here: Fully documented walleye population decline in a small, heavily fished lake, Special regulations enacted to hopefully halt further decline, lake under serious additional pressure from winter fishing, and now spill-over from closure of Lake Scugog, a Ministry who refuses to follow their own science and make decisions that are in favour with the conservation of the resource, a local Chamber Of Commerce who is willing to use what's left of the resource , and negatively impact it, for retail gain, the same Chamber that uses false propaganda to lable the event as a "live release"tournament, to obtain public acceptance, the addition of over 4000 species-targeted rod hours, on the very species that is the subject of the special regulations, and most importantly, the total, disrespectful waste of the resource. Ethical anglers who keep some fish for the table don't litter the bottom of the lake with dead fish on an annual basis. If there is an agenda, it is to get MNR Fisheries Policy Section to manage the resource competently, before we have no fishery left! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirCranksalot Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Welcome to the board, Dave/Fenelon. That's quite an articulate and well reasoned defence of your point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hirk Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Grimsby: I understand the Ontario fishing regs and regularly keep some of my catch for the table. Never had a problem with fishermen keeping their fish. You obviously are missing the multitude of issues here: Fully documented walleye population decline in a small, heavily fished lake, Special regulations enacted to hopefully halt further decline, lake under serious additional pressure from winter fishing, and now spill-over from closure of Lake Scugog, a Ministry who refuses to follow their own science and make decisions that are in favour with the conservation of the resource, a local Chamber Of Commerce who is willing to use what's left of the resource , and negatively impact it, for retail gain, the same Chamber that uses false propaganda to lable the event as a "live release"tournament, to obtain public acceptance, the addition of over 4000 species-targeted rod hours, on the very species that is the subject of the special regulations, and most importantly, the total, disrespectful waste of the resource. Ethical anglers who keep some fish for the table don't litter the bottom of the lake with dead fish on an annual basis. If there is an agenda, it is to get MNR Fisheries Policy Section to manage the resource competently, before we have no fishery left! Dave A small fragile lake? Under additional serious pressure from winter fishing? (Pan fish only but you know that). If your going to use science then stick too it, not your half truths and twisted facts to push your agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 And this is a MNR problem. Not a tourney problem If there is an issue with fish mortality from catch and release. End catch and release. If not then the guys in the tourney are not breaking any laws. So they do have every right to fish So if change is needed go after the law makers and leave the fishermen alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimsbylander Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 That be said, do those conditions not apply to dozens or 100's of lakes nation wide? Would it not make more sense to modify the tournament as opposed to pushing for possible termination and opening the doors to further restrictions to other areas of our sport? In other tournaments I've seen: A lower catch limit? Shorter hours? Biggest fish per hour, so boats would only have one, maybe two fish in the boat at any one time and they'd get weighed in within two hours? There are a multitude of existing rules that are active in other tournaments that could be implemented to lower the risk and number of fish that die (without being consumed). It's my view that this needs to be looked at with an unbiased opinion, mine included, and without the "not on my lake" attitude. As said before, better control is the key. Eliminating live release tournaments will lead to higher kill rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 The board has facts the go on. I'm hoping a real scientist like Bruce Tuff will look at the facts and move science forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crappieperchhunter Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 A small fragile lake? Under additional serious pressure from winter fishing? (Pan fish only but you know that). If your going to use science then stick too it, not your half truths and twisted facts to push your agenda. IMHO all the Kawartha lakes are small and fragile with regards to the impact us fishermen can have on them...and I'm sure that is his point. I'm also sure all Kawartha Lakes close to scugog will get additional pressure now that walleye is closed on it. And any reasonable person would realize that having an open ice season albeit only for panfish,will also have an impact on walleye. I'm sure lotsa dishonest or uneducated people take them home if they catch some and I'm also sure some die after handling even if released. I don't know Dave/Fenelon at all. But I see him as someone passionate about the resource, and I have no problem with that. If more where like that I think we would have far less problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hirk Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 ^^^^^^^ I have had the benefit of reading multiple posts he made regarding this tournament last yr, he is a zelot with and agenda who Im pretty sure happens to live on Sturgeon. You might say the event is in his back yard, ok on with the "I have no personal stake in this" crusade. Does he have good intentions? Sure maybe to a degree but the claims he spouted last yr while covering yhem in a thin vale of science were shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinker Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 ^^^^^^^ I have had the benefit of reading multiple posts he made regarding this tournament last yr, he is a zelot with and agenda who Im pretty sure happens to live on Sturgeon. You might say the event is in his back yard, ok on with the "I have no personal stake in this" crusade. Does he have good intentions? Sure maybe to a degree but the claims he spouted last yr while covering yhem in a thin vale of science were shameful. A thin veil of science? You dont know who Dave is, obviously. I know for a fact he has been involved with more science on sturgeon lake alone than you, and likely anyone here, has. Ive been biting my tongue on this thread so far, but when people talk pure B S it bothers me. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hirk Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Yes I do know who he is, thats why he has discredited himself by making claims that have not been proven via research yet he presents them as fact, thats the issue I have with this guy because he should and does know better based on his work history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinker Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Discredited?? Ok, then.... Its the MNR who has no credit. Fenelon can only do so much. MNR is the one who makes the decisions. If they made a decision based on the work Fenelon has done, things would be much different. BTW, i don't know Dave personally. We have met once or twice, but I wouldn't know him from adam.......I know of the work he has done on the lake though. How much have you done? How many nets have you pulled? How much data do you have? What have you done to help any lakes in the area? Anyways, I will bite my tongue again. CYA! S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Shows up with different name twisting facts into truth with no regard for science. A cousin gave me his name and bio last time. I threw it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Cliff Posted June 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Typical; you don't like it or don't agree with it; he's an ass H. I live on Sturgeon Lake I just cleaned 20 dead rotting fish off my shore line (67'), there wasn't one there on Friday. You can blame it on anything you want but every year it's the same story; tourniment = dead fish. Welcome to the board Dave but be ready, no matter what you post someone is going to jump all over you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenelon Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 (edited) Hirk: I just read through what I posted, and I'm not seeing any half-twisted truths or false claims. Can you please explain specifically what I've said that you feel I've embellished, or twisted, and I'll support what I've said. If you'd rather I pm you personally, then I can do that. Regarding anything that I've said that hasn't been proven by research, I openly BEG you to call the Kawartha Lakes FAU and request a digital copy of the 1998 - 2012 Sturgeon Lake NSCIN index data. Also ask for the three FWIN (Fall Walleye Index Netting) data files, as well as the 12 years of mark-recapture Walleye data that is used to calculate annual mortality and population size. It's all available to you under the PIA (Public Information Act). Run some simple queries on the digital files that they send you, then think about everything I've said or posted, and determine if what I'm saying is fact or fiction. The lake has the longest running NSCIN data set in the province, thanks to the Fish and Wildlife Program at Fleming College. There is no other inland Ontario lake that has been studied more. The data is pretty amazing. With a mere keystroke, you can run queries to track year class strength, year class progression through the established slot, progression to protected spawners, etc., etc. With it starting in 1998, it's really neat to track the impact of the new Black Crappie invasion. You'll see how it's affected fish condition factor, age and size at sexual maturity, etc. Anyone can become a pro, and analyze the lake's history and population status if you play around on the computer for some time. Regarding my work history, I devoted 13 years of my life to studying this lake , so yes, you are definitely correct - it's pretty tough to say there's not some personal "agenda" for having some concern about how its being managed. My agenda is to not to just sit there chewing on a dogshite sandwich, and saying that it tastes good, when I feel it's worth trying to conserve something that is openly being abused. I've been part of conducting 1324 trap net sets (26,480 "net soak hours"), processed, tagged, and mark-recap spine clipped more than 6300 walleye, and run 6100 meters of gill net over two FWIN surveys, all on this little Kawartha Lake. Anything I've said is based on this. Sorry about being a little zealous and fanatical about what's left of the fishery! Dave PS. No - I don't live on the lake. I can't afford waterfront. Edited June 1, 2016 by Fenelon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Fish don't rot in 4 days Cliff. We have had some wind was it on your shore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecmilley Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 I think it was a push, really know all kinds of people that decided to fish elsewhere this past weekend due to the can am so really don't think the lake was really hit any harder than any other weekend with the majority of the fish surviving the release. most of the fishng boats in my neck of the woods stayed in dockage all weekend. as for mortality I would be really intrested to see which boats the dying fish came from. reason being never lost a walleye in my livewells in any temp, usually use my livewell aereator system to help fish recover they leave in bettershape then they come in, had a 34 inch walter the other day put in the bubbles for a couple minutes near jumped back in the lake after 5 minutes. and this with a older bass boat livewell system with updated pumps and such new ones even better. tourney fishing can be fun and most competitors care greatly for the fishery and are amassadors for the sport, pointing fingers won't make it better or make it go away, but gives us the opprutunitty to develop ways to move forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitoubass2 Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 I think it was a push, really know all kinds of people that decided to fish elsewhere this past weekend due to the can am so really don't think the lake was really hit any harder than any other weekend with the majority of the fish surviving the release. most of the fishng boats in my neck of the woods stayed in dockage all weekend. as for mortality I would be really intrested to see which boats the dying fish came from. reason being never lost a walleye in my livewells in any temp, usually use my livewell aereator system to help fish recover they leave in bettershape then they come in, had a 34 inch walter the other day put in the bubbles for a couple minutes near jumped back in the lake after 5 minutes. and this with a older bass boat livewell system with updated pumps and such new ones even better. tourney fishing can be fun and most competitors care greatly for the fishery and are amassadors for the sport, pointing fingers won't make it better or make it go away, but gives us the opprutunitty to develop ways to move forward I mentioned the livewells earlier EC. Same deal here, rarely ever have a fish die in the livewell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 What did the winner get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Like I've stated. Canada/US has 2 levels of penalties Stressed and Dead. Somebody trained checks every fish for length and condition. There might be way more stressed fish. The board knows every penalty and who got the penalty. So hope I hope to see interview process. I likely will here about it. Then they need pro scientist to look at all the in views. Dr Bruce Tuffs would be perfect for the job. Proven credentials and proven to follow the science to design the study. And report back. I would expect that we will know the results by the new rules next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Cliff Posted June 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Fish don't rot in 4 days Cliff. We have had some wind was it on your shore. Yes, wind was on shore and we live right on Goose Bay which was very heavly fished both days. 4 days of baking in the sun sure had them smelling like they were rotten but maybe they just smelled and looked that way. It might not have been from the tourniment but prior to it we have had one dead fish wash up on shore so far this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hirk Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Hirk: I just read through what I posted, and I'm not seeing any half-twisted truths or false claims. Can you please explain specifically what I've said that you feel I've embellished, or twisted, and I'll support what I've said. If you'd rather I pm you personally, then I can do that. Regarding anything that I've said that hasn't been proven by research, I openly BEG you to call the Kawartha Lakes FAU and request a digital copy of the 1998 - 2012 Sturgeon Lake NSCIN index data. Also ask for the three FWIN (Fall Walleye Index Netting) data files, as well as the 12 years of mark-recapture Walleye data that is used to calculate annual mortality and population size. It's all available to you under the PIA (Public Information Act). Run some simple queries on the digital files that they send you, then think about everything I've said or posted, and determine if what I'm saying is fact or fiction. The lake has the longest running NSCIN data set in the province, thanks to the Fish and Wildlife Program at Fleming College. There is no other inland Ontario lake that has been studied more. The data is pretty amazing. With a mere keystroke, you can run queries to track year class strength, year class progression through the established slot, progression to protected spawners, etc., etc. With it starting in 1998, it's really neat to track the impact of the new Black Crappie invasion. You'll see how it's affected fish condition factor, age and size at sexual maturity, etc. Anyone can become a pro, and analyze the lake's history and population status if you play around on the computer for some time. Regarding my work history, I devoted 13 years of my life to studying this lake , so yes, you are definitely correct - it's pretty tough to say there's not some personal "agenda" for having some concern about how its being managed. My agenda is to not to just sit there chewing on a dogshite sandwich, and saying that it tastes good, when I feel it's worth trying to conserve something that is openly being abused. I've been part of conducting 1324 trap net sets (26,480 "net soak hours"), processed, tagged, and mark-recap spine clipped more than 6300 walleye, and run 6100 meters of gill net over two FWIN surveys, all on this little Kawartha Lake. Anything I've said is based on this. Sorry about being a little zealous and fanatical about what's left of the fishery! Dave PS. No - I don't live on the lake. I can't afford waterfront. My reference to statements you have made is based on posts from you on fishing forums last yr. It seems your objective is to have this event stopped in the name of saving the fishery. If so your barking up the wrong tree as Im sure you would agree there are many things that could be done that would have a much greater impact in improving it then stopping this event bu unless I have missed it I dont see you lobbying for other changes? So what is your objective? This is all just my laymans take on it and isnt worth much but its how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRISONER Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Fish don't rot in 4 days Cliff. We have had some wind was it on your shore. this is a ridiculous statement... im gonna go throw a fish on my lawn in the sun for 4 days and then invite you over for a fish fry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirCranksalot Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 this is a ridiculous statement... im gonna go throw a fish on my lawn in the sun for 4 days and then invite you over for a fish fry... I thought that comment was 'out to lunch' too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BITEME Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) Let's not forget the great Canadian salmon kill derbies that go on and on and on Edited June 2, 2016 by BITEME.Esq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave524 Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) Let's not forget the great Canadian salmon kill derbies that go on and on and on They post the top ten on a daily basis, do they not???? No excuse for keeping a fish if it is not in the running. Edit: well of course if you want to eat one, but I'd prefer a Coho over a prize contender Chinook in that case Edited June 2, 2016 by dave524 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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