irishfield Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 The two CO's in the Temagami area are gems.. Mike and Pete as well as most of the OPP that they ride with are great guys and always a good chat when they come by twice a week. Now the Sarg giving me a $110 ticket for no helmut while moving from hole to hole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 After speaking to 2 CO`s regarding taking pictures of undersized muskies he didn’t seam to have an issue with it. As long as you have the proper fishing licence that allows you to possess a musky and it’s in season and you release the fish healthy it is not something they would likely charge you with. The only thing they said was that in thier opinion it could be considered an offence if it’s a musky that is out of season or you are in possession of the musky without the proper licence like a conservation licence where the possession limit on musky is 0. Basically they said it was illegal to posses a musky with a conservation licence or posses an out of season musky at any time and in the case that you hook one out of season or with a conservation licence you need to remove the hooks while it remains in the water. According to the CO, once you remove that musky from the water and hold it, even for just 1 picture, even for only 10 seconds, you are in possession of it when you shouldn`t be and the picture is evidence of that. However, as the CO`s told me they would even consider charging you if the fish is released quickly and in good health, unless they suspect that you are targeting the musky out of season or with a conservations licence. Yes, I know you’re allowed to fish musky with a conservation licence, but according to the law you cant posses one at any time, even for a picture, therefore if you have a conservation licence you are required to leave it in the water if you hook one. It`s probably best just to get a sport licence if you`re going to fish musky in Ontario. Overall unless the CO suspects you are purposely committing an offence like targeting a musky out of season your chances of being fined for taking a picture of a small musky or any musky is not likely. Graham, Fish Hard, Fish Fast Georgian Bay Musky Charters www.ontariomusky.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishfield Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I see you've conversed with Bruce Ward as well Graham. Ask him what he thinks about taking pictures of Sturgeon with a sport licence.. that have a Zero possession... and he'll start to stutter and tell you that's different! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerdog Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Graham - interesting comments from the COs and highlights how unclear the term 'possession' is even within enforcement. Doesn't seem to make sense that possession of an undersized fish, which has a possession of 0, (especially one that is clearly undersized - you don't need a measuring tape to know a 30" muskie isn't a 54") has a different standard if you have a sport license. Sturgeon has an added complexity also since they also have protection under the Species At Risk Act which also requires immediate release to avoid being considered to have hurt, harmed or harassed a SAR. And in case you're wondering - SARA fines are WAY bigger than FWCA or OFR fines. Hopefully, the COs choose to enforce the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. There's lots of more serious offences worth making a trip to court over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinker Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hopefully, the COs choose to enforce the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. There's lots of more serious offences worth making a trip to court over. Exactly! The guys who are going by the letter of the law are a little paranoid if you ask me!! S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregoire Posted March 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Exactly! The guys who are going by the letter of the law are a little paranoid if you ask me!! S. Are you talking about anglers or CO's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lew Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 The guys who are going by the letter of the law are a little paranoid if you ask me!! Here's a long story but it shows how some guys, in my personal opinion, get carried away with power, a badge and a gun. About 12 years ago 8 of us with 4 trucks and 4 boats went on a week long camping/fishing trip to Quebec. We travelled east from Temiskiming 40-50 miles into the bush on logging roads and set up our camp beside a nice lake. Our 1st morning we headed out about 6:00 AM and were gonna have a fishfry for breakfast. One guy caught 2 small pickeral and cleaned them when he got back to camp. The rest of us got skunked so we decided to just save them till that night when we caught more. We headed back out that night and came back in at 10 PM to be met by 2 CO's waiting for us on the dock. They ordered us all out of our boats and one of them stood with his hand on his gun while the other went thru every compartment in each boat. After the boats were checked they went thru our vehicles and then literally pulled our personal gear apart in the tents. They even checked inside our sleeping bags, all the while the one guy kept us "covered" with his gun. The guy with the gun never spoke a word and the other was one of the most ignorant guys I've ever come across. When they found nothing illegal anywhere, they went for the iceboxes and when they came across the fillets he went insane and accused us of poaching because the fish had been filleted and the skin removed. We tried to explain that they were intended to be added to more fish for breakfast but seeing as we didn't get more we would keep them till later but he wouldn't buy it. He said he was going to fine us $250 EACH and if we didn't pay him cash on the spot he'd have tow trucks come in from Temiskiming and confiscate our trucks and boats. Eventually we talked him down and only the guy that actually cleaned the fish was fined but it still had to be cash right then or come back to Temiskiming at a later date for a court appearance. We decided that $250 between 8 of us was cheaper than one guy returning all the way back to Quebec for the court appearance and the fine was payed. A reciept was given and they left us alone after that. I'm not even sure if what they did was legal or not but we figured it was better than having our trip ruined anymore. Yes, the skin should have been left on the fish till they were cooked, but under the circumstances I don't really see where we did anything wrong and IMHO it shows how some guys take the letter of the law waaaay too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike rousseau Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Here's a long story but it shows how some guys, in my personal opinion, get carried away with power, a badge and a gun. About 12 years ago 8 of us with 4 trucks and 4 boats went on a week long camping/fishing trip to Quebec. We travelled east from Temiskiming 40-50 miles into the bush on logging roads and set up our camp beside a nice lake. Our 1st morning we headed out about 6:00 AM and were gonna have a fishfry for breakfast. One guy caught 2 small pickeral and cleaned them when he got back to camp. The rest of us got skunked so we decided to just save them till that night when we caught more. We headed back out that night and came back in at 10 PM to be met by 2 CO's waiting for us on the dock. They ordered us all out of our boats and one of them stood with his hand on his gun while the other went thru every compartment in each boat. After the boats were checked they went thru our vehicles and then literally pulled our personal gear apart in the tents. They even checked inside our sleeping bags, all the while the one guy kept us "covered" with his gun. The guy with the gun never spoke a word and the other was one of the most ignorant guys I've ever come across. When they found nothing illegal anywhere, they went for the iceboxes and when they came across the fillets he went insane and accused us of poaching because the fish had been filleted and the skin removed. We tried to explain that they were intended to be added to more fish for breakfast but seeing as we didn't get more we would keep them till later but he wouldn't buy it. He said he was going to fine us $250 EACH and if we didn't pay him cash on the spot he'd have tow trucks come in from Temiskiming and confiscate our trucks and boats. Eventually we talked him down and only the guy that actually cleaned the fish was fined but it still had to be cash right then or come back to Temiskiming at a later date for a court appearance. We decided that $250 between 8 of us was cheaper than one guy returning all the way back to Quebec for the court appearance and the fine was payed. A reciept was given and they left us alone after that. I'm not even sure if what they did was legal or not but we figured it was better than having our trip ruined anymore. Yes, the skin should have been left on the fish till they were cooked, but under the circumstances I don't really see where we did anything wrong and IMHO it shows how some guys take the letter of the law waaaay too far. Wow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Damn Lew, you should have cooked that fish and just had it with eggs the next morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bob Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Here's a long story but it shows how some guys, in my personal opinion, get carried away with power, a badge and a gun. About 12 years ago 8 of us with 4 trucks and 4 boats went on a week long camping/fishing trip to Quebec. We travelled east from Temiskiming 40-50 miles into the bush on logging roads and set up our camp beside a nice lake. Our 1st morning we headed out about 6:00 AM and were gonna have a fishfry for breakfast. One guy caught 2 small pickeral and cleaned them when he got back to camp. The rest of us got skunked so we decided to just save them till that night when we caught more. We headed back out that night and came back in at 10 PM to be met by 2 CO's waiting for us on the dock. They ordered us all out of our boats and one of them stood with his hand on his gun while the other went thru every compartment in each boat. After the boats were checked they went thru our vehicles and then literally pulled our personal gear apart in the tents. They even checked inside our sleeping bags, all the while the one guy kept us "covered" with his gun. The guy with the gun never spoke a word and the other was one of the most ignorant guys I've ever come across. When they found nothing illegal anywhere, they went for the iceboxes and when they came across the fillets he went insane and accused us of poaching because the fish had been filleted and the skin removed. We tried to explain that they were intended to be added to more fish for breakfast but seeing as we didn't get more we would keep them till later but he wouldn't buy it. He said he was going to fine us $250 EACH and if we didn't pay him cash on the spot he'd have tow trucks come in from Temiskiming and confiscate our trucks and boats. Eventually we talked him down and only the guy that actually cleaned the fish was fined but it still had to be cash right then or come back to Temiskiming at a later date for a court appearance. We decided that $250 between 8 of us was cheaper than one guy returning all the way back to Quebec for the court appearance and the fine was payed. A reciept was given and they left us alone after that. I'm not even sure if what they did was legal or not but we figured it was better than having our trip ruined anymore. Yes, the skin should have been left on the fish till they were cooked, but under the circumstances I don't really see where we did anything wrong and IMHO it shows how some guys take the letter of the law waaaay too far. WOW again.....and THANK YOU Lew for sharing and writing in small paragraphs that made it easy to read. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Thats why i cook all of my fish with the skin on. Next thing they will be checking turds to see how many fish you ate. I guess they could charge you for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outllaw Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Try southern ont. its the equilevent of boss hog and cletus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I'm sure the concept of possession has been challenged extensively and there is a working def'n. CO authority and discretion are very broad. While there certainly are bad apples I'm sure most aren't going to stick their neck out when they stand the chance of being called to court to explain themsleves. I am not saying anyone was a jerk in any of these cases, but I'm sure a lot of times the fined party talked or acted themselves into the fine/consequence. Or perhaps past history was used as a deternining factor. The test would be, given the totality of the circumstance, would a "reasonable" person reviewing the facts find the party guilty of the offence. That is what court is for. If someone has a complaint file it. Get it on record. Get an incident report number if they are asking for cash. We don't want absolute def'ns because then everyone gets charged or no one does. Discretion is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I'd say that that was quite well said, Radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirCranksalot Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Here's a long story but it shows how some guys, in my personal opinion, get carried away with power, a badge and a gun. This happens far too often in other 'walks of life' IMHO. I remember in particular 1 short female Nazi border guard in Detroit whose little bit of power had gone to her head. I'll spare you the details of the ridiculous shenanigans she 'performed'(and i use the word 'perform' deliberately). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tybo Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Just keep saying do you want to do all that paper work, over and over. Alot of law enforcers will use there discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darsky Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Here's a long story but it shows how some guys, in my personal opinion, get carried away with power, a badge and a gun. About 12 years ago 8 of us with 4 trucks and 4 boats went on a week long camping/fishing trip to Quebec. We travelled east from Temiskiming 40-50 miles into the bush on logging roads and set up our camp beside a nice lake. Our 1st morning we headed out about 6:00 AM and were gonna have a fishfry for breakfast. One guy caught 2 small pickeral and cleaned them when he got back to camp. The rest of us got skunked so we decided to just save them till that night when we caught more. We headed back out that night and came back in at 10 PM to be met by 2 CO's waiting for us on the dock. They ordered us all out of our boats and one of them stood with his hand on his gun while the other went thru every compartment in each boat. After the boats were checked they went thru our vehicles and then literally pulled our personal gear apart in the tents. They even checked inside our sleeping bags, all the while the one guy kept us "covered" with his gun. The guy with the gun never spoke a word and the other was one of the most ignorant guys I've ever come across. When they found nothing illegal anywhere, they went for the iceboxes and when they came across the fillets he went insane and accused us of poaching because the fish had been filleted and the skin removed. We tried to explain that they were intended to be added to more fish for breakfast but seeing as we didn't get more we would keep them till later but he wouldn't buy it. He said he was going to fine us $250 EACH and if we didn't pay him cash on the spot he'd have tow trucks come in from Temiskiming and confiscate our trucks and boats. Eventually we talked him down and only the guy that actually cleaned the fish was fined but it still had to be cash right then or come back to Temiskiming at a later date for a court appearance. We decided that $250 between 8 of us was cheaper than one guy returning all the way back to Quebec for the court appearance and the fine was payed. A reciept was given and they left us alone after that. I'm not even sure if what they did was legal or not but we figured it was better than having our trip ruined anymore. Yes, the skin should have been left on the fish till they were cooked, but under the circumstances I don't really see where we did anything wrong and IMHO it shows how some guys take the letter of the law waaaay too far. Your friend would not have had to travel to quebec for a court date-unless he was to plead not guilty. Pleading guilty by mail is acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bob Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Your friend would not have had to travel to quebec for a court date-unless he was to plead not guilty. Pleading guilty by mail is acceptable. When pleading other then guilty and paying the fine on the spot you risk having all your equipment seized for evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lew Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 We'd spent many months planning this trip and were only into our 1st full day and figured it was much easier to just pay the fine up front and be done with him. As I said in my original post, I don't even know if what he did was legal or not but it wasn't worth ruining a much anticipated trip over. Closer to home we may have taken it further. Kinda sad too really, cause we we're fishing in one of those ZEC's they have in Quebec and had payed about $100 each for the priveledge, plus 8 fishing licences, so we were about $1200 outta pocket just to be treated like criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tootsie II Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I wonder if any of this would have happened if your trucks had Quebec plates on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 AHHHHHHHHHH here we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercman Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 AHHHHHHHHHH here we go. Cripes i thought you were gonna sneeze, i was getting ready to say Bless You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinker Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Are you talking about anglers or CO's? The anglers. Why would the CO's be paranoid?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oggie Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I wonder if any of this would have happened if your trucks had Quebec plates on them. You beat me to it! I have a camp close to the quebec border. Most people think the vehicle plate MAKES A DIFFERENCE. Dan o. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSF Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Very interesting thread, I'd like clarification too. Just sent the question/concern to MNR. S/be about 15 days before receiving a response from them. LETTER FROM MNR RECEIVED APR 11/12: Releasing Out of Season or Undersized Fish: Well Guys, it took over a month, but I just heard back from MNR: "Dear Mr. (XXXXXXXXXXXX): Thank you for your email dated March 1, 2012. I am pleased to respond. The Ontario Fishery Regulations, 2007 indicate that a person fishing under the authority of a sport fishing licence must immediately return a fish to the water if the retention and possession of that fish is prohibited by the regulations. If the fish is alive, it is to be released it in a manner that causes the least harm to the fish. A person is required to return the fish to the water without delay and in a manner that minimizes harm to living fish. The objective is to do as much as possible to ensure the survival of the fish. You had inquired about removing deep set hooks onboard rather than cutting the line at water level. In many cases, removing deep-set hooks may be the least harmful way to release the fish, therefore assisting in its survival. The Ontario Fishery Regulations, 2007 are laws that are put into place to help ensure the sustainability of Ontario's resource. By quickly returning the fish to the water, the mortality rate is reduced and the fish lives to grow, reproduce and contribute to the ecosystem, and get caught another day. When enforcing these regulations, conservation officers do so with the intent of the legislation in mind and exercise discretion accordingly. Sincerely, Lois Deacon Director, Enforcement Branch Ministry of Natural Resources Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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