Gregoire Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Hi all, This question came up on another board, and I did a google search, but could not really find the information that I was looking for. My Question is: Is breaking an Ontario fishing regulation an criminal offense. So would you have to go to court, or is it more like a traffic ticker where you can just pay a fine. This question came up as a result of a discussion on whether it is legal to take a photo with a Musky that is unders the size limit. I am just wondering if a CO does charge a person, which he may be able to do, what the charge would be a what possible consequences one could face. Edited February 29, 2012 by fishgreg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskieman Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 I've never heard of getting charged for taking a picture of an under sized fish , folks to it all the time , I guess that that would also apply to a slot size Walleye, I suppose if the fish was kept out of the water for an extended period of time it would be different, but on the other hand it is in your possession... As for a court date yes, you must attend court , I was once charged for fishing in a sanctuary ( misprint in regulations 2005 for then Zone 27) I fought it in court and won my case.. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigugli Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Criminal offences are those listed in the CCOC, a federal body of laws, and quite extensive. Try reading it some time Almost all fishery regulations are provincial. There are also some federal regulations that a CO will enforce, but I don't recall any that are includrd in the Criminal Code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Not a criminal charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokestackLightnin Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 It would be hard to prove that a taking a picture of a fish is actually "possession". As for criminal charges, COs in Ontario enforce the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act. The majority of penalties are fines and equipment seizures with no effect on your criminal record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregoire Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 So it is just a fine...If it is not a criminal charge why do you have to appear in court. I also remember reading something about the Ontario Fishing Regulations being enforced according to the fisheries act, which is a federal act. Wouldn't that mean that the regualtions are in fact enforceable as law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) So it is just a fine...If it is not a criminal charge why do you have to appear in court. I also remember reading something about the Ontario Fishing Regulations being enforced according to the fisheries act, which is a federal act. Wouldn't that mean that the regualtions are in fact enforceable as law? You don't have to appear in court, you only do if you want to challenge it. If you challenge it you appear in Provincial Court. Of course the regs are 'law' why would you assume otherwise? Edited February 29, 2012 by BillM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike rousseau Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 So it is just a fine...If it is not a criminal charge why do you have to appear in court. I also remember reading something about the Ontario Fishing Regulations being enforced according to the fisheries act, which is a federal act. Wouldn't that mean that the regualtions are in fact enforceable as law? i didnt have to go to court when i got dinged for fishing walleye out of season (thought one bridge was a border but it was another... ) $250 each... no fish in possession... but WE CHOSE to go see the justice of the peace and explain what happened and he cut the fine in half... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokestackLightnin Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) There are numerous Acts and Regulations that Ontario CO's both enforce and administer. As mentioned, the main one the Ontario Provincial Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act. Court appearance is an option if you don't want a CO to be both judge and jury. The other consideration for having a court appearance is violation of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act can lead to up to 2-years imprisonment for Commercial Offenses and up to 1-year for General Offenses. Edited February 29, 2012 by SmokestackLightnin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregoire Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 You don't have to appear in court, you only do if you want to challenge it. If you challenge it you appear in Provincial Court. Of course the regs are 'law' why would you assume otherwise? That makes total sense. Who determines the fines? Is there a set fine for specific violations as there is for traffic violations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 That makes total sense. Who determines the fines? Is there a set fine for specific violations as there is for traffic violations? Yup, set fines.. Don't ask me how I know this, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigdritchie Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Depends what you're charged with. Most fishing offenses are provincial, but there are a handful of instances where federal regs overlap. Some guy taking a quick picture of an undersized muskie would not be in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregoire Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 So at worst case a fine, and maybe confiscation of equipment. Could your fishing liscence be revoked as welll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokestackLightnin Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 So at worst case a fine, and maybe confiscation of equipment. Could your fishing liscence be revoked as welll? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallacio Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Yup, set fines.. Don't ask me how I know this, lol LOL...trust me, Bill is an expert on these matters!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregoire Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 It just strikes as unfair that a CO for whatever reason could choose to fine you and take away your fishing liscence for something like taking a picture of an in season fish. I know it is unlikely to happen but the fact that it could makes me uncomfortable. Loosing my fishing equipment would not be as serious to me as would be loosing the previlidge to fish. Has there been a push to clarify the regulations? Or is this a situation where someone with money or influece will need to be charged and then challenge the Regulations in court untill the MNR is forced to clarify this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 It just strikes as unfair that a CO for whatever reason could choose to fine you and take away your fishing liscence for something like taking a picture of an in season fish. I know it is unlikely to happen but the fact that it could makes me uncomfortable. Loosing my fishing equipment would not be as serious to me as would be loosing the previlidge to fish. Has there been a push to clarify the regulations? Or is this a situation where someone with money or influece will need to be charged and then challenge the Regulations in court untill the MNR is forced to clarify this issue. The judge would throw that ticket out... Most CO's I've run into are good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMc Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 yes, it is unlikely to happen, but according to several CO's, the local MNR office, the District MNR office and the Peterborough office, as soon as you remove a fish from the water (even to take a quick pic and then release) it is considered to be in your possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregoire Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 The judge would throw that ticket out... Most CO's I've run into are good guys. It is the fact that I would have to appeal to a judge, take time set and travel to a court date, and not be able to fish untill the issue has been resolved that bothers me. I think we need clarification on what possession and immediate means. I would like the MNR to declare that removing a fish from the water for a quick picture is not a violation as long as the fish is in season, despite the fact that it may not meet size requirements. Just to add to this issue, it is not always to remove, or cut hooks in the water. If a fish takes the hook deep sometimes you have to remove it from the water in order to remove the hook, especially if you do not have the proper landing gear. In this case you would be in possesion of the fish and possibly face a fine when all you are doing is trying to remove the hook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) It just strikes as unfair that a CO for whatever reason could choose to fine you and take away your fishing liscence for something like taking a picture of an in season fish. The fish has to be out of season. As for "immediately", it's open to interpretation that's a whole other can of worms. I would take it to mean don't even take the fish out of the water. If you were hanging onto a live 220V line, would you like me to turn off the power immediately, or would you like to roast your jewels a few seconds more while we take a picture. It's no different than the "do not allow consumable fish to go to waste" if it out of season and dies, you still have to throw it back. Edited February 29, 2012 by Fisherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bob Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 LOL...trust me, Bill is an expert on these matters!!!! Billy.....BILLY....fess up BILLY.....tell all.....how many times have you been written up....how many times have you been FINED.....and finally....HOW MANY TIMES did they send you to the Big House....did you meet your new boyfriend BUBBA there....you know the guy you always meet on the second Friday of every month ALONE.... ENQUIRING MINDS want to KNOW..... (just having a fun with you buddy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 It is the fact that I would have to appeal to a judge, take time set and travel to a court date, and not be able to fish untill the issue has been resolved that bothers me. I think we need clarification on what possession and immediate means. I would like the MNR to declare that removing a fish from the water for a quick picture is not a violation as long as the fish is in season, despite the fact that it may not meet size requirements. Just to add to this issue, it is not always to remove, or cut hooks in the water. If a fish takes the hook deep sometimes you have to remove it from the water in order to remove the hook, especially if you do not have the proper landing gear. In this case you would be in possesion of the fish and possibly face a fine when all you are doing is trying to remove the hook. The problem is each circumstance is different.. This is why it's up to the officer in question to make the decision.. If these were black/white issues then I could understand, but as you pointed out they aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregoire Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 The fish has to be out of season. As for "immediately", it's open to interpretation that's a whole other can of worms. I would take it to mean don't even take the fish out of the water. If you were hanging onto a live 220V line, would you like me to turn off the power immediately, or would you like to roast your jewels a few seconds more while we take a picture. It's no different than the "do not allow consumable fish to go to waste" if it out of season and dies, you still have to throw it back. I agree with your point, but I think you are missing mine. If a judge would throw out a ticket for briefly removing a musky that is smaller that say 44" in the Kawartha's than a CO should not be able to lay the charge in the first place. This matter should be clarified and not left up to a CO to determine. Maybe something like "An angler catching a fish that is in season but can not be kept due to size restrictions can briefly remove the fish from the water for a photo. If an angler removes an out of season fish for a photo, he/she can be charged with violating the Ontario Fishing regulations. " To put my opinion in other words: I do not think that anglers should be subject to a charged if they are doing something that is commonly accepted and seen as having little harm on the fish. I hope I didn't just open another can of worms with that last comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 CO's aren't going to charge you if you are doing something that's commonly accepted.. Have a little faith man The world is not black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregoire Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 The problem is each circumstance is different.. This is why it's up to the officer in question to make the decision.. If these were black/white issues then I could understand, but as you pointed out they aren't. As I just indicated I think this particular issue is Black and White. Any fish that is caught in season but falls outside of a size restrictions. Either you are allowed or not allowed to remove the fish from the water for a picture. I do not think that a CO should be given discretion to give a ticket that would be thrown out by a judge in every situation that I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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