Jump to content

Spouph

damned cormorants

Recommended Posts

Hatchery fish aren't going to stand a chance if there is nothing for them to eat.. Cormorants or no cormorants. The issue here isn't the birds, it's just the most visible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i post this every time but i know most of you won't even take the time to read it.

http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/wildlife/factsheets/fs_cormorants-e.html

 

or how about a pie chart to summarize!

glfs-corm-graph6-e.gif

 

Sal...

- is that from 06?

- that data represents the entire province, right? Not just the areas where there are cormorant populations.

- does that data come from great lakes populations? I suspect their food source differs substantially btwn great lakes (alewife?) and inland lakes (perch, bass, walleye, etc)?

- does it make sense to compare on a macro level (consumption in the entire province) when on a micro level they concentrate and empty an area, then move on to other areas or just spread out? (not unlike locusts)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just realized it's from lake ontario.

 

So, is Lake Ontario really representative of inland lakes? Food sources are shallower/smaller fish....how do deep swimming salmon fit into that equation?

 

I'd love to see a graph showing what percentage of shallow dwelling sport fish (bass, perch, etc) they pluck off in the areas they inhabit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i post this every time but i know most of you won't even take the time to read it.

http://www.on.ec.gc....rmorants-e.html

 

or how about a pie chart to summarize!

glfs-corm-graph6-e.gif

 

Thats some data right there! Kuddos for that. But like many studies, scientifically speaking, the numbers are more that likely inaccurate.

 

For someone touting science (in an I know it all fashion), I'm amazed that you would even post such a chart.

 

Scientifically, there is no way these numbers are even close to relevant.

 

You already know this, or at least I hope you do...

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On top of that, many species are also evasive. That's nature, and that's a part of how evolution takes place. Even humans are in the same boat.

 

As far as these birds, it's considered different because they influence what we like to partake in, fishing and wilderness.

 

It's a problem for us, because we view them as depleting our past time, and our so called resource. In reality it's not really our resource, it belongs to all of nature. Not just our "just for me mentality".

 

On the other hand, we depend on unbiased scientist to count and decifer the data. They never actually do anything to correct or worsen the situation. The information is handed off to organizations etc to be dealt with. That's where the biased always enters, whether it be policy, money or whatever, scientist just tell us the numbers, and possible problems/solutions etc.

 

As far as numbers go, it's vital that anglers play a part. If anglers are noticing increased numbers or absurd numbers then listen to them. Anglers watch everything on the water (for the most part) and IMO have a solid reference to what they see/experience. Anglers are like a skateboarder. A skateboarder sees an angled piece of concrete with a rail attached, he thinks "cool, I can grind that". An onlooker merely walks by without noticing the rail. Anglers are the same way on the water, noticing very detail, take their experience to further credibility.

 

Dr. Sal, no personal attack, but alot of times you don't take anyones personal experience into account. And at times, come off as a real "know it all". If you actually follow science, then maybe listen and take all things into account. After all, thats what a good scientist would do, correct?

 

Good thread here, carry on.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a very well worded although somewhat sarcastic response all typed out to this discusion but I hit the backspace key and decided the last sentance in my post was good enough and wraps it all up.

 

Geeeshh! I should go :Gonefishing: and just learn to keep my mouth shut 'cause like they say, 'Even a fish wouldn't get into trouble if he kept his mouth shut."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am just as in favour of blasting a few of these flying rats as the next guy as I've seen their populations explode in a number of areas I've fished over the past decade

 

that being said, I must give my two cents...

 

Agreed by most I suppose is that there is no way we could have a free-for-all on cormorants, however a lot of fuss is being made over how should they be controlled. Science is the all encompassing rule of how research is conducted and results are processed in biology-pretty straightforward.

 

Think about the time that realistically may go into this process (in an academic realm):

 

6 months-1year: Researcher(s) comes up with a proposal for a study (cormorants), seeks approval and funding before even starting.

5 years(ballpark): Researcher(s) conduct fieldwork i.e. tracking, capturing, observations, and data collection/calculations.

6 months- Researcher(s) compile results, compare, contrast and make generalizations, suggestions and proposed control method.

1-11/2 years-Review process, final report sent to other various experts in the field to approve of the findings and so on.

 

7-10 year process right there...again I cannot wait for the day (if it may ever come) where I can blast every cormorant that comes within 50 yards of my duck blind, but we can't go saying they're not doing anything. When the reps from the Ministry say "we're working on it", well they are. Its a drawn out process that takes longer than we'd hope, but hopefully the work being done (I am by no means an expert on the matter) will result in some positive solutions for the issue and right decisions. :good:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cormorant Recipe

 

Having shot your cormorant, hold it well away from you as you carry it home; these birds are exceedingly verminous and the lice are said to be not entirely host-specific. Hang up by the feet with a piece of wire, soak in petrol and set on fire. This treatment both removes most of the feathers and kills the lice.

 

When the smoke has cleared away, take the cormorant down and cut off the beak. Send this to the local Conservancy Board who, if you are in the right area, will give you 3/6d or sometimes 5/- for it. Bury the carcase, preferably in a light sandy soil, and leave it there for a fortnight. This is said to improve the flavour by removing, in part at least, the taste of rotting fish.

 

Dig up and skin and draw the bird. Place in a strong salt and water solution and soak for 48 hours. Remove, dry, stuff with whole, unpeeled onions: the onion skins are supposed to bleach the meat to a small extent, so that it is very dark brown instead of being entirely black.

 

Simmer gently in seawater, to which two tablespoons of chloride of lime have been added, for six hours. This has a further tenderising effect. Take out of the water and allow to dry, meanwhile mixing up a stiff paste of methylated spirit and curry powder. Spread this mixture liberally over the breast of the bird.

 

Finally roast in a very hot oven for three hours. The result is unbelievable. Throw it away. Not even a starving vulture would eat it. Why would you let your dog?

 

NICE....well written......it's nice to see someone else here with a good sense of humor....BTW my lab would eat before I do all that to it or AFTER I did all that to it..... :rofl2:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i post this every time but i know most of you won't even take the time to read it.

http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/wildlife/factsheets/fs_cormorants-e.html

 

or how about a pie chart to summarize!

glfs-corm-graph6-e.gif

 

I did read it the first time and the results can be construed to make it look deceiving......kind of like you avatar name.....at one time I thought you were a real doctor....now I know better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and the bonus is ....fisherman will benefit....the hatchery fish will stand a much better chance upon their release to the wild....mortality rates in house are tolerable ....to see cormorants gobbling up a winters labour isnt tolerable (sickening actually)

 

 

Twocoda Flemming?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good Morning Fishermen, Hunters, Cormorant Lovers and even you Tree Huggers.

 

Sinker and myself have been hunters and fishermen for a very long time....we have actually experienced the ups and downs of wildlife in our rivers, lakes and hunting areas...not read about them in books. We can recognize a threat or a down turn WAY before our so called government "experts" acknowledge the problem.....I have seen crappie populations CRASH in my favorite lake all while the DEC said nothing is wrong...then at the same lake a few years later I witnessed the walleye population crash all while the DEC said the fishermen are not fishing the lake properly....LOL....guess what...we now have strict size and bag limits on both those species...something the sportsmen were BEGGING for all while the DEC was in denial.

 

For those who want to wait for your MNR to compile a crap load of data (see lots of money for lots of government jobs) on the cormorant invasion think how effective our two governments have been in preventing/controlling all the invasion species that are now in our waterways (see zebra mussels and gobies for small example). Now we are being threatened by Asian Carp invading our Great Lakes....should we just let it happen and study it until I'm dead....I think not...I hope not.

 

Money talks and Bull walks....Tree Hugging groups have tons of money to spend on the protection of the Great Cormorant and I'm sure they are in the back pockets of MANY of our government officials....if you don't realize that, then hopefully you will in time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good Morning Fishermen, Hunters, Cormorant Lovers and even you Tree Huggers.

 

Sinker and myself have been hunters and fishermen for a very long time....we have actually experienced the ups and downs of wildlife in our rivers, lakes and hunting areas...not read about them in books. We can recognize a threat or a down turn WAY before our so called government "experts" acknowledge the problem.....I have seen crappie populations CRASH in my favorite lake all while the DEC said nothing is wrong...then at the same lake a few years later I witnessed the walleye population crash all while the DEC said the fishermen are not fishing the lake properly....LOL....guess what...we now have strict size and bag limits on both those species...something the sportsmen were BEGGING for all while the DEC was in denial.

 

For those who want to wait for your MNR to compile a crap load of data (see lots of money for lots of government jobs) on the cormorant invasion think how effective our two governments have been in preventing/controlling all the invasion species that are now in our waterways (see zebra mussels and gobies for small example). Now we are being threatened by Asian Carp invading our Great Lakes....should we just let it happen and study it until I'm dead....I think not...I hope not.

 

Money talks and Bull walks....Tree Hugging groups have tons of money to spend on the protection of the Great Cormorant and I'm sure they are in the back pockets of MANY of our government officials....if you don't realize that, then hopefully you will in time.

 

 

Hey! Bill , can you just leave this for now and come over here with me ................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ThisPlaceSucks

 

 

Dr. Sal, no personal attack, but alot of times you don't take anyones personal experience into account. And at times, come off as a real "know it all". If you actually follow science, then maybe listen and take all things into account. After all, thats what a good scientist would do, correct?

 

 

i don't really take the "let's start shooting" mentality seriously... sorry.

 

if someone wants to produce something intelligent for me to read, i will read it. cram's post would be a good example of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ThisPlaceSucks

and before i'm accused of being a know it all, please look back to where i say i have no experience with cormorants. all i will suggest is that the people who are studying cormorants every day and who have dedicated their life to fisheries management know a lot more than all of us, and i trust their science before sinker and billy bob's ticked off rants any day. this thread isn't worth it!

Edited by Dr. Salvelinus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and before i'm accused of being a know it all, please look back to where i say i have no experience with cormorants. all i will suggest is that the people who are studying cormorants every day and who have dedicated their life to fisheries management know a lot more than all of us, and i trust their science before sinker and billy bob's ticked off rants any day. this thread isn't worth it!

 

No one is ticked off here, at least I'm not....I guess your reading skills need to be brushed up on... :)

 

Like I have said, I have WAY more REAL experience then you do in these matters......so I trust my experience a lot more then any government agency telling me what's good for me....keep trusting the government and see where that gets you in the next 20 years....I can't blame you for your beliefs as I too was once young and believed all the things I read...but then I did all the things I was reading about and found out a lot of it did NOT add up.

 

Doc, you're still a good egg in my eyes....we just don't agree on what to do with all the cormorant eggs.....hey did you notice the last for letters in cormorant....LOL.... :D

 

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ThisPlaceSucks

not sure what "real" experience is, but to me it sounds like you have observed a fisheries decline in your lifetime. i don't doubt that for a minute. what i doubt is that the cormorant is the sole or primary contributing factor in this decline.

 

when science determines a cull or season is required, i'll be right there with you with my wingmaster. until then, i'm sticking with the scientific community. nothing personal, but they are the real experts. they are good people and they believe in what they do.

 

the only thing that troubles me is that having faith in the scientific community makes me the "know it all". meanwhile, the people claiming to know better than the experts aren't given the same tag.

Edited by Dr. Salvelinus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe I'm the gentleman in which the OP was referring to when he started this topic.. Up here in Northern Ontario and also Manitoulin Island the cormerant issue has become quite an epidemic. 10 years ago I didn't even know what a cormerant was, now they are everywhere.. Since they have arrived, fishing has depleted significantly -faster than any environmental issue could have wiped them out..

On my own lake in which I live on, the sightings of the birds pretty much directly coincides with the lack of fish caught.. In the winter of 05-06 perch fishing was amazing, you could catch a perch before your lure hits bottom, if your line was in the water for more than 5 minutes without a fish it because your minnow was gone.. This was like this all day, everyday.. ( now that doesn't mean I kept every fish I caught) Now fast forward to 2011... Fishing isn't even worth going out for, you really have to try all day to catch enough for a meal for one. Please explain to me how the fishery could decline so rapidly - and NO, there aren't that many fisherman on the lake - maybe 15 - 20 huts total.

 

Also on Manitoulin island on lake wolesly.. Cormerants are feeding on the farmed rainbow trout and the native perch.. The MNR Has granted the rainbow trout farmer permission to shoot the birds so he can protect his investment.. But why do the perch have to change their spawning habits?? Perch on Lake Wolesly do NOT spawn in shallow water like they do in other lakes, instead they spawn deep, most likely under the rainbow farm nets... Why? To hide away from the cormerants!! Please explain to me why a species has to change its spawning habits on one specific body of water in order to survive?

And whoever stated that a cormerant eats 1lb of fish a day, I believe it's a lot more than that. Or there's a lot of birds that go unnoticed because they are wiping out small lakes up here in a matter of years, not generations like sport fishing would.

So I for one believe the cormerant issue needs taking care of NOW before it's too late, because things are declining Fast!!

 

For all of those who are pro-cormerant and feel I'm misinformed - flame away at me.. But before you do - come live in my region and see for yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GYPSY400, good post....see that's exactly what I have been trying to say....first hand experience vs study study study study until the resource is dead or beyond repair.

 

For all those who read everything that is published about the cormorant and take it as gospel....I have one important question......what is the cormorants natural enemy that is suppose to keep this flying black fish eating rat in check... :dunno:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ThisPlaceSucks

carrying capacity. it's worked flawlessly for hundreds of million of years. only man is arrogant enough to think he needs to control nature.

Edited by Dr. Salvelinus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

carrying capacity. it's worked flawlessly for hundreds of million of years. only man is arrogant enough to think he needs to control nature.

 

So then your against controlling rats.......

 

How about skunks under your deck or all over your neighbourhood....rabid raccoons are good with you also....and how about millions of uncontrolled dogs and cats....you must be against neutering them, right. And you must NEVER kill any mosquitoes or black flies or you would be going against everything you have posted here. The list could go on and on....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ThisPlaceSucks

you can put whatever words in mouth that suit your argument BB. :whistling:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

carrying capacity. it's worked flawlessly for hundreds of million of years. only man is arrogant enough to think he needs to control nature.

 

Excuse me Doc, who's words are these..... :whistling:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...